![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
A few words (well, okay, more than a few) on fandom and women characters
So it appears that fandom is having its somewhat-annual discussion of slash as a genre: good idea, bad idea, transgressive, appropriative, symptom of internalized misogyny, etc., etc., etc. Since I don't identify as a slasher (I write it on occasion, mostly in response to prompts, and often enjoy reading it, but the vast majority of what I write is either het or gen), I don't really have a dog in this hunt, so I didn't start following it right away.
But the topic morphed, as discussions on the Internet often do, and I have recently found some very interesting posts focusing on a topic much nearer to my heart: female characters, in fanfiction and in mainstream media, and whether fandom's focus on stories about men is problematic. These posts, in particular, resonated with me.
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
musesfool - It's all in how you use it
This, exactly this, and depresses me, too. As a rule (not every person, every time; I'm talking about patterns, not individuals), we are much harder on female characters in our analysis than male ones. There are any number of reasons for this, but I think it comes down to the fact that there are so many fewer female characters in most media. Which leads to two problems: first, we have fewer representations to choose from, and second, we get a lot of tokenism. Very often, the cast of characters in a story will boil down to archetypes: the smart one, the funny one, the impulsive one, etc. And one of those types is "the girl", and there's only so much a creator can do within that mold.
And then we have creators who try to break the mold with so-called "strong female characters", with varying levels of success. Don't get me wrong -- this represents progress. I would much rather see Strong Female CharactersTM than Damsels in Distress, and I am more inclined to give a benefit of the doubt to creators like J.J. Abrams and Joss Whedon who at least appear to be trying. But there is still a long, long way to go. Occasionally we get a hit, but more often they miss, because the women aren't characterized in such a way as to make them interesting or well rounded. They're given character traits that make them appealing to men, as this excellent article from Overthinking It points out:
Exactly. Strong or weak, the emphasis is still on the "Female" rather than on the "Character", and that's a problem. The article goes on to list a number of women characters who have something to them that makes them unique, interesting, human, and not necessarily in a way that marks them as female.
But in a way this is all beside the point: we in fandom do tend to come down on female characters, dismiss them, hate them, call them Mary Sues, and then turn around and give male characters a pass for the exact same traits. And if we find ourselves doing that and giving reasons that sound like they belong on a bingo card, maybe it's time to step back and rethink.
(I participated in a discussion about this topic in![[personal profile]](https://s.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
renay's journal about a year ago; my thoughts above are largely adapted from my comments there. Hat tip to dreamcatcher for the link to the Overthinking It article!)
miera_c - Thoughts on slash
The above-linked author is compiling a list of said reasons, and, as she says, I can think of times when every single one of them might be appropriate. But when they start piling up, as they seem to do in these discussions? Yes, I do think it's cause for concern.
Not that I would ever, ever say that writing slash, or stories that focus on men, or traditionalist het, or whatever is "wrong". We write what we're drawn to write, and overall I think that's a good thing. What I'm asking for, dreaming of, is a world where we are able to take a critical look at the work we produce and the worlds we create, and really think about why we're drawn to those particular characters and situations. And a part of critical thinking in this context is considering the ways in which the culture that surrounds us affects our choices. As one of my favorite thinkers likes to say, "This shit doesn't happen in a vacuum." It's about owning our choices, and accepting the ramifications, not just digging in our heels and getting stuck in "I write what I wanna write."
rahirah - A Modest Proposal
Because, in the end, it really is just that simple, if we let it be. If we drop the reasons and the excuses, and the fear of getting it wrong. If we all do it together, imagine how much less scary it will be!
This is just about the shortest call to arms you will ever read, but it's a very stirring one.
At least it was for me, to the point that I am seriously considering participating in![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
halfamoon, a February challenge community focusing on women characters in fandom. Because while I feel like I shouldn't need a reason to focus on the awesome women of Final Fantasy, it never hurts to have one.
But the topic morphed, as discussions on the Internet often do, and I have recently found some very interesting posts focusing on a topic much nearer to my heart: female characters, in fanfiction and in mainstream media, and whether fandom's focus on stories about men is problematic. These posts, in particular, resonated with me.
musesfool - It's all in how you use itIt never fails to amaze me that we place female characters in such an awful catch-22. They can't be perfect, but they can't be flawed! They can't be seen as vulnerable, but they can't be too strong!...
I've seen every single one of these arguments made whenever this topic comes up and it depresses me.
This, exactly this, and depresses me, too. As a rule (not every person, every time; I'm talking about patterns, not individuals), we are much harder on female characters in our analysis than male ones. There are any number of reasons for this, but I think it comes down to the fact that there are so many fewer female characters in most media. Which leads to two problems: first, we have fewer representations to choose from, and second, we get a lot of tokenism. Very often, the cast of characters in a story will boil down to archetypes: the smart one, the funny one, the impulsive one, etc. And one of those types is "the girl", and there's only so much a creator can do within that mold.
And then we have creators who try to break the mold with so-called "strong female characters", with varying levels of success. Don't get me wrong -- this represents progress. I would much rather see Strong Female CharactersTM than Damsels in Distress, and I am more inclined to give a benefit of the doubt to creators like J.J. Abrams and Joss Whedon who at least appear to be trying. But there is still a long, long way to go. Occasionally we get a hit, but more often they miss, because the women aren't characterized in such a way as to make them interesting or well rounded. They're given character traits that make them appealing to men, as this excellent article from Overthinking It points out:
And even when she was being strong, she was always doing it in the sexiest way possible. She’d never, say, get a black eye or a broken nose in a fight. Her ability to fix cars (a powerful, masculine trait) would basically allow her to get sexy grease all over her slippery body. Her ability to shoot a gun was so the film’s advertisers could put her on a poster wearing a skimpy outfit with a big gun between her legs. All in all, the “strength” of her character was just to make her a better prize for the hero at the end – and for the horny male audience throughout....
I think the major problem here is that women were clamoring for “strong female characters,” and male writers misunderstood. They thought the feminists meant [Strong Female] Characters. The feminists meant [Strong Characters], Female.
Exactly. Strong or weak, the emphasis is still on the "Female" rather than on the "Character", and that's a problem. The article goes on to list a number of women characters who have something to them that makes them unique, interesting, human, and not necessarily in a way that marks them as female.
But in a way this is all beside the point: we in fandom do tend to come down on female characters, dismiss them, hate them, call them Mary Sues, and then turn around and give male characters a pass for the exact same traits. And if we find ourselves doing that and giving reasons that sound like they belong on a bingo card, maybe it's time to step back and rethink.
(I participated in a discussion about this topic in
renay's journal about a year ago; my thoughts above are largely adapted from my comments there. Hat tip to dreamcatcher for the link to the Overthinking It article!)miera_c - Thoughts on slashI've reached a point where I feel that women writing about male characters, even nominally straight male characters in a homosexual relationship, is a way we are participating in our own erasure. When there are female characters available, and female fans ignore them in favor of writing about the male characters instead, that makes me uncomfortable....
It's especially worrisome for me when the 8,000 familiar excuses get tossed around for why the female fans aren't writing about the female characters. Everybody knows these excuses, and the problem is, in individual cases they may be completely legitimate, but when they get added up and you begin to see a pattern forming, it becomes highly problematic.
The above-linked author is compiling a list of said reasons, and, as she says, I can think of times when every single one of them might be appropriate. But when they start piling up, as they seem to do in these discussions? Yes, I do think it's cause for concern.
Not that I would ever, ever say that writing slash, or stories that focus on men, or traditionalist het, or whatever is "wrong". We write what we're drawn to write, and overall I think that's a good thing. What I'm asking for, dreaming of, is a world where we are able to take a critical look at the work we produce and the worlds we create, and really think about why we're drawn to those particular characters and situations. And a part of critical thinking in this context is considering the ways in which the culture that surrounds us affects our choices. As one of my favorite thinkers likes to say, "This shit doesn't happen in a vacuum." It's about owning our choices, and accepting the ramifications, not just digging in our heels and getting stuck in "I write what I wanna write."
rahirah - A Modest ProposalIf there aren't enough female characters in your fic, then write more female characters.
Because, in the end, it really is just that simple, if we let it be. If we drop the reasons and the excuses, and the fear of getting it wrong. If we all do it together, imagine how much less scary it will be!
This is just about the shortest call to arms you will ever read, but it's a very stirring one.
At least it was for me, to the point that I am seriously considering participating in
halfamoon, a February challenge community focusing on women characters in fandom. Because while I feel like I shouldn't need a reason to focus on the awesome women of Final Fantasy, it never hurts to have one.
no subject
Also, even those of us who write women more than men tenf to stick to younger, traditionally "sexy" female characters. A function of the games, which barely have any old, average-looking, or chubby characters, but also a function of culture shaping our tastes. I have been having some guilt-spasms lately over the fact that I really do get a kick out of Fran's buns as sexy buns.
With me it's not so much the characters that are the issue. I've got strong, cranky, vulnerable, complex female characters. But I keep questioning my own tastes. 4 years ago, I was being annoyed at this "Lulu" character for having a body type and outfit that seemed designed to titillate a male audience. Only after I discovered she was a strong character, bad-tempered and intelligent, did I decide it was "okay" for me to notice she's sexy hawt. And then I struggle with whether it's okay that I'm finding a skinny idealized barbie body to be sexy hawt. So along comes Fran, and I let myself be attracted to her butt, and only gradually discover that she's also a strong character.
Either way, I don't know if I'm allowed to like female characters for their bodies. It's the catch-22 mentioned above, except I'm subjecting my own tastes to it, not the characters. :P
no subject
While I think that being mindful about what we like and why we like it is important, I don't think we should be miring ourselves down with guilt, either. I'm not sure how we balance that, but I think it's important to try. One of the things I love about fandom is how much joy we take in the characters and stories we like, and I would hate to see that undone.
no subject
And I just totally went off on a tangent from your original post!
The catch-22 that we're screwed whichever we way we portray women is not one I've run into, but it certainly does come up in the fandom.
The second point you raise about strong female characters triggers another catch-22. That Overthinking article is spot-on, and is why X-2 is a curate's egg for many of us. If women in a story are strong, then they must be titillating to look at, and we will include panty shots or Lara Croft short shorts (oh, and let's give Lara a makeover so she wears even less than she used to). And boobs, of course. Exhibit A: Rikku-bikini.
So we're in a bind with a rather limited palette of female characters to choose from, even in Final Fantasy which has made some efforts to have strong female characters.
On the other hand, sometimes our (I don't necessarily mean your, just many women gamers) criticism of FF's stereotypical female characters goes past "augh, these guys don't design real women!" to invectives against certain kinds of women that have gotten on feminism's hit list.
-- "Why are so many of the women mages who can only fight at a distance and/or go 'bip!' for damage?" starts morphing into venom against all shy, feminine, less assertive female characters. And/or the strong sides of the character are minimized. (See: Yuna, Rinoa, Garnet, and especially Aeris in the whole Aeris vs. Tifa debate).
-- female characters who display their bodies often get the "she's a slut" critque. On the one hand, it's often blatant fanservice, which is problematic. On the other hand -- wait, feminism doesn't mean we can't enjoy/flaunt women's bodies! It's hard to find the line between "they've tarted up Yuna for the boys; she's a ho!!!" and "she's no longer trapped in that sacrificial virgin outfit and mindset, yay!"
I still don't entirely understand why slash is so prominent. Sort of, yes, except not.
And, hey,
no subject
no subject
no subject
*points at icon*
Some of our favorite female characters are those who aren't afraid to
say what they really thinkbitchslap stupidity.In fact, I wish I were better at it.
no subject
I used up most of my societal outrage a loooong time ago. :D
no subject
I would say if you haven't seen Whip It, with Ellen Page, you really, really should. I want to take all those creators of (Strong Female), Characters and point to Whip It and say "THIS. These are real, strong women." There was the whole issue of competitiveness (and the idea that women aren't), but it didn't bother me a whole lot, because it was sort of an on-and-off thing.
Also! It passed the Bechdel Test with flying colours.
Hurrah the delete and respost edit!
Gun-totin' wife-beater-clad tomb-raidin' action doll is hardly the only way to address female strength. Let's get that out of the way. It should be obvious. And about that strength bit? Female characters have the right to be as flawed and fucked up as any male characters. This is something that has irked me on fandom's focus on occasionally tokenesque "Strong Female Character". [Strong Characters], Female. This, right there. And a strong character should foremost indicate Good Writing rather than Might and Muscle.
Most of fandom is centered around media aimed at a younger and/or mainstream audience. Mainstream media is generally among the slowest to embrace a shifting zeitgeist, and often clumsily apply it. For a number of reasons. I'm not going to fault the writers of [H]ouse for failing The Bedchel Test (hell, they fail the "CHARACTERS NOT CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT GREG HOUSE ALL THE DAMN TIME, EVEN IN INTIMATE BEDROOM SCENES NOT INVOLVING GREG HOUSE" test) because they've got to appeal to advertisers, and sexy lady doctors sell Xbox games better than does a flawed Every Women. Furthermore, there are plenty of writers writing awesome female characters and filmmakers making compelling films on complex ladies, but not many of them are gonna be prime time or serialized in Shonen Jump. I can't speak much to the creators you've mentioned -- I've only seen about half an episode of Buffy and Lost. Though I can't say I was thrilled by Abram's treatment of Uhuru, either. I do think it's telling, though, that the mainstream TV shows I currently follow (30 Rock, The Office) both have pretty solid characters across the gender spectrum. And while I'm hardly immersed, both feature fandoms that write the female characters at least as much as the male characters (Jack/Liz, Pam/Jim).
Finally, don't underestimate the UNF! factor. I think it's safe to say most females obsessing over male characters probably have a dash (just a dash!) of sexual attraction toward the male body. And where there's sex involved, it will thrive. Internalized misogyny or no.
Re: Hurrah the delete and respost edit!
no subject
This bothers me a great deal, and I see it a lot: people taking one look at a character, sees that they conform to one stereotype (Yuna is a healer! Tifa has boobs!) and not looking any further. I found this particularly problematic with Yuna in X-2, where the drastic costume change apparently caused some to assume that she had also undergone an equally drastic personality transplant, when it didn't take a particularly deep reading to see that she hadn't changed all that much below the surface.
So apparently Lara Croft is undergoing a makeover where she will show *less* skin, which is an interesting development. I recently came across an interesting video on women gamers and women in games, which I will have to share.
no subject
I think we are fortunate in FF fandom, because despite all their flaws, I think Squaresoft is at least attempting to create interesting female characters, even if they miss on the details more often than not. And while we have some folks who write men exclusively or nearly so, most of the fan writers and artists I know are more balanced in their approach, even those who identify as slashers. I know you've gotten away from FF fandom lately, but if you're ever inspired to clean up those stories you mention, I for one would love to see them. :)
Re: Hurrah the delete and respost edit!
In theory I would agree with you, but reading around the web on this debate, I've seen dozens of "Hi, I'm a lesbian, and I write slash" posts. Although I tend to agree that very few people have zero appreciation for particularly attractive examples of the gender they aren't normally attracted to.
Reboot Uhura isn't one of J.J. Abrams's better women (although she wasn't awful, either); I was thinking more of some of the characters on Lost (Sun, Juliet, sometimes Kate) and (from what I hear, since I've never watched) Alias. I don't think it's an accident that the programs you cite are half-hour comedies; they tend to have more women in the audience than hour-long genre shows.
Re: Hurrah the delete and respost edit!
I loved reboot Uhura's casting, but not her writing. I hope she gets a better deal next movie.
no subject
And I want to think about it, and reply later. But I loved this post. :)
no subject
I feel like I see less of this phenomenon amongst my friends than I do in fandom as a whole. Not being primarily a slash writer might be part of it. But as I consider it, I think it's not just that I enjoy female characters, both in and out of Final Fantasy, but that my favorite aspects of most FF games are the team dynamics, and FF teams tend to be mixed in gender. So that helps, because it's harder to write just about the men: the women are around, and you have to actively try to keep them out of the story.