owlmoose | Beat it

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Beat it

Finished the final battle this afternoon. I think I'll need some time to sit with it before I can give a fully formed opinion, but for now, my reaction shot.

Overall, I would say that it was enjoyable, although I never fell in love with it like I did FFX or X-2. Worth playing for sure, and I look forward to continuing on with the Cieth Stones and other missions on Pulse. But I missed things like being able to explore Cocoon, and sidequests other than the marks, and the total lack of puzzles. When I play a Final Fantasy game, I want to feel like I'm getting to know a world, and although we get that with Pulse, Cocoon never became more than a series of unconnected sets to me.

Endgame: So... I am confused. If killing Orphan is the terrible thing that's going to destroy Cocoon, why do they kill Orphan? And when and how did they come to the conclusion that their goal was to fight Orphan rather than protect it? It made sense after the fact -- kill Orphan to end fal'Cie rule of Cocoon, then use the power of Ragnarok to keep Cocoon together -- but I never got a sense that they got together to discuss this plan. If I have one serious gripe with this game, this is it: the tendency for character development and important exposition to be explained in the Datalog rather than shown on the screen. (I also wish that they had just added new character information to the Datalog rather than overwriting the old. I have the feeling I missed a lot.)

We got Bartandalus Part 3 pretty easily, and we also beat Orphan Part 2 on the first try, but Orphan Part 1 was harsh. We tried several different party configurations before throwing our hands up and going back to level up and upgrade our weapons some more. Against all conventional wisdom, our final party was Sazh, Vanille, and Hope; the combination of buff/debuff/heal while Sazh played Commando almost full-time was slow, but effective. I don't know that I would *recommend* it, exactly, but it worked for us. (Lightning would probably have worked just as well as Sazh, but Sazh had notably more hit points, so it was a lot easier to keep him alive.) Has there *ever* been a final boss who talks as much as Orphan? Blah blah Ragnarok metaphysics blah. Just shut up and die already! Geez.

The very end scenes, I did enjoy: Fang and Vanille joining to become Ragnarok and fulfill their focus together was poetic and beautiful. It leads me to wonder whether protecting Cocoon after the fall of Orphan was what Anima intended as their focus all along, and if Lightning and company were only bound to support them toward this goal (and so they turned to Cieth when it appeared that Fang and Vanille were going to continue at cross-purposes). The reunion with Serah and Dajh at the end was beautifully bittersweet -- you could see how much their lost companions were missed, and I am sad that the six of them won't continue to explore Pulse and have adventures there together. A lot was left unexplained at the end: did anyone still on Cocoon survive the crash, who will lead the people now, where did everyone on Pulse go, what about Hope's dad? But overall, despite my nagging questions, I was satisfied.

BTW, T got impatient and skipped through the credits; was there any sort of cut scene between them and the end card? Maybe one that shows Fang and Vanille melting again? It's nice that they're together at the end, but I'd rather them have an existence that's more like a life. Please say yes.

So this thing where you can keep doing side missions after the final battle? Awesome. So, so awesome. This may be my favorite development in this game. Now we can play around at leisure without worrying that I'm going to stumble across some awful spoiler on the Internet. I hope they keep this model for future games, even if it does mean that the final boss is a little easier on the grand scale than usual.

Speaking of spoilers: now I can properly research the story I started the other day without fear. Excellent.

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The consensus on message boards where I asked about the people on Cocoon is that they survived. Probably bumped around *a lot*, but still alive.
Sorry to say it looks like Fang and Vanille are still in the crystal, but I get the vibe that they are almost like the Fayth from X--able to communicate outside of their frozen bodies. At the very least it is implied they will revive one day, to "greet a new dawn".

I get the vibe that they are almost like the Fayth from X--able to communicate outside of their frozen bodies

Interesting concept! It does seem likely that they are in at least some state of consciousness, since I think that Vanille is narrating the game from her crystal state.

I can also see them asking Lightning to participate in the new Cocoon/Pulse government -- that division seems like it will probably start to fade -- but I don't know if she'd play along. After what happened, I suspect she is less keen on authority than she used to be.

I was thinking of writing fic taking place after the end of the game, but I really have to rewatch all the scenes on Youtube again, my memory sucks ><;;;

This is the advantage of the datalog! Although I know that's not quite the same as seeing the scenes again. Are the cut scenes up on YouTube already?

There are full playthroughs in English on Youtube, but you have to fast forward through the battles if you don't feel like watching them. Not sure if anyone has uploaded *just* the cutscenes yet.

Also, I feel like the people of Cocoon are going to end up at least partially populating Pulse. I also envision Lightninh being asked to take some role in rebuilding the governing body, but don't know if she'd be interested in that.

Although I had to put gaming on hold because life is too busy, I've given up on avoiding spoilers.

When I play a Final Fantasy game, I want to feel like I'm getting to know a world, and although we get that with Pulse, Cocoon never became more than a series of unconnected sets to me.

Do you think this is because the characters have few opportunities to speak with NPCs? Or because everything on Cocoon is (effectively) a dungeon crawl therefore there aren't any towns to explore (and NPCs to speak to within the towns)?

Both. But I think I felt the lack of NPCs more. The nature of the story being told kept the characters very isolated. I thought was great for building a really strong core team and exploring the characters and the connections between them, but not good for exploring the rest of the world -- the people, the society, the history. And when I play a Final Fantasy game, I really want all three: an engaging story, a strong core of characters, and an interesting world. Two of those prongs stand up in FFXIII, but I found the third to be weaker.

I, too, am a little sad that there are no side quests except the Marks. And I agree that it was harder to sink into the world when everything was hidden in the datalog.

It was still some fun, though not as much as say, XII.

I had the opposite experience with this game that I did with XII -- that one grabbed me right away (once I got used to working with Gambits, anyway), but the story had fizzled for me a bit by the end, whereas FF13 took awhile to grow on me; once it did I liked it a lot. On the other hand, I liked FF12 much better after a replay, but given how deterministic FF13 is, I'm not sure how much replay value it will have for me. Certainly not right away; maybe I'll come back to it before Versus comes out.

The games are all so different; it's hard to compare them. I doubt I will ever love another as much as I loved FFX.

The Datalog is an excellent addition to the game, but it should have been just that: an addition, not vital to understanding what was really going on.

I have to say FF13 is my favorite FF game since the PS One era ended. I haven't fallen in love with the world of a FF this much, ever--prior to the PS2 era, most game worlds were standardized, and as I know I've mentioned before, the PS2 era never offered me characters I could gnaw on. In FF13, I got characters and a world I can chew on, flaws and all (just the right kind of flaws for fanfiction, imho--if it's too good, you don't need fanfic at all). I don't mind the info in the Datalog--it would have bogged down the story and wound up in Exposition City otherwise. (A huge problem for FF games in general. They try to avoid "As you know, Bob" by making certain characters total newbies, but even then, the "As you know, Bob" moments happen frequently. Even FF13 still had a few, but far less than its predecessors.) All the important, story-germane information appeared in-story. I didn't have any problems with missing explanations, aside from a couple plot holes, though a little more detail wouldn't have hurt!

I also quibbled about the sudden desire to kill Orphan, but I think what happened as they went along was they realized they had to end him to stop him. What they did is end it on their terms. Though FF13 is rather juvenile in spots (it's an FF game, after all XD), I found its themes more consistent and mature than usual. Its mythology was solid. We have some interesting criticism of religion, exploration of free will, existentialist themes, and even a touch of heroic tale deconstruction. I'll get into that during my critical analysis, which will no doubt take me far too long to write. XD

I found Lightning/Hope/Snow extremely effective and still do, but everyone's playing style demands a different set-up. Sazh/Vanille/Hope sound like an interesting team, though--but perhaps not the fastest. Effective at least, and decently well-balanced, if magic-skewed.

The ending does show Cocoon soldiers landing on Cocoon--I think maybe you missed it? It flashed by quickly. You can see the Cocoon ships landing on the ground. It is suggested the Fal'Cie are dead, but the people survived and now have to make Pulse their home. I find this intriguing, especially given their xenophobia. I think it's also suggested that Fang and Vanille can wake up one day, but I suppose that day will wait for the sequel! Or fanfic! :D

No extra scenes, sadly. I hope you saved after the credits, though. That's what gets you into the post-story. I'm still farming Adamantoises, though I have 95% of the missions complete. Sigh. XD

Good luck with your fic! :D

We are currently running around Pulse post-story and having fun with it. It's nice to be able to explore at a leisurely pace, and to stomp most of the monsters on the plains with little trouble (although we haven't been able to take on the Adamantoises yet).

I did see that quick scene of Cocoon soldiers and civilians standing on Pulse, presumably based on Rosch's order to evacuate, but I don't know that necessarily implies that everyone or even almost everyone made it out. And the landing of Cocoon seemed pretty violent, even on its crystal "cushion". But I agree it seems clear that there were at least *some* survivors, and I see lots of room for interesting "what happens next" stories about the people of Cocoon adjusting to life on Pulse and without the Fal'Cie (although I'd bet there are at least some Pulse Fal'Cie left alive).

Re. the Datalog: my complaint isn't so much that game events and backstory exposition weren't clear without it -- I liked that part, especially at first; I thought it was a great way to fill us in on the background without too much infodump, which I agree has been a problem in some other games. What I didn't like so well was when character motivations and development *in game* were shunted to the Datalog. Like when Lightning started to have doubts about using jealousy to motivate Hope: we knew she was having doubts because the Datalog told us, not because Lightning showed us. That's the kind of thing that bothered me. I can totally see how this is an area in which tastes may vary, though.

Re. fic: Thanks! The first one is actually already finished, but it was the kind of story where writing it raised more questions than it answered for me, so I suspect that more will be forthcoming... How is yours coming? Are you planning on XIII fic for both of the upcoming Big Bangs? (I actually thought about saving the Raines/Rosch storyline for

megaflare_ff, but I decided I didn't want to risk it with a bunny that new.)

While I prefer New Game+ mode, the post-story thing is kinda cool, too. It is nice to come back more powerful. If you need strategies on farming Adamantoise, let me know. There's also a bunch online.

I did see that quick scene of Cocoon soldiers and civilians standing on Pulse, presumably based on Rosch's order to evacuate, but I don't know that necessarily implies that everyone or even almost everyone made it out.

Ah, yes, I see what you mean now. And you're right. I'm sure there had to be losses with what happened. I'm actually kinda playing around those ideas, myself. I think the "what happens next" aspect of the game fascinates me the most. There's so many issues to consider with Cocoon survivors on Pulse. How will they cope with their xenophobia--and the Pulse fal'Cie, for example? It's these questions that make me rather interested in a sequel.

Aha, I see what you mean about the Datalog. While I agree that it was inappropriate to make things such as Lightning's motivations clear through that, rather than the story, I guess they wanted to expand on that. I mean, I saw it in-story by her expressions and the way she started to hesitate the more Hope got worked up. I suppose their reasoning that since the story was Vanille's perspective, her narration, they needed the Datalog to expand on the unsaid. And there was quite a lot left unsaid. Sometimes this worked--and sometimes it failed, as with Lightning's motivations and the group's motivations in the end. It is a good point you made, though I think it more of a mixed bag than you.

Ah, I have your story on an open window right now, and I'll likely read it tonight sometime. :D I am intrigued by the idea of Cid/Rosch. That's an interesting pairing, gen or slash-wise (I like both). I'll be sure to leave a comment when I read it. As for my own, well, I am doing both Big Bangs, and they'll both be FF13. They're kinda companion pieces, like fraternal twins, though they're not actually connected. XD I scrapped the plot for

hardmode_lj and managed to find another, so I'm feeling better. I've only written a couple of one-off test pieces, so these fics work. XD

Ah, I hadn't thought of that perspective -- that because Vanille is the in-game narrator, we're getting her point-of-view on things and so we need the Datalog to fill in the gaps: backstory, history, other people's thoughts and motivations. It works somewhat better when I think of it that way (although not 100%, since we see plenty of action that Vanille isn't present for).

I also really love New Game+ and wish more FF titles had it. I think X-2 may be the only one I played that does. But it's pretty cool that you can leave most of the side missions and come back for them later. I'd probably pick New Game+, if I had to choose, but wouldn't it be cool if a game had both?

The Cid/Rosch piece is gen (I write mostly gen and het, only dabbling in slash), but I don't let out the possibility of taking them down a slashier road later... ;) I hope you like it, but I am definitely looking for honest opinions! My ideas about the characters are still forming, and if I'm going in a bad direction, this is the time to fix it.

Isn't it funny how we went from no Big Bangs to having all kinds of options? There's at least four, including Mega Flare, with buzz on my flist. Anyway, I look forward to seeing what you come up with. :)

I got the impression that Vanille was telling us what was told to her about what happened to others, such as Snow and Hope in Ch. 7 or Lightning and Hope in Ch. 5. Everything was from her perspective. However, I do agree with you that it doesn't always work. They waffled between characters having to say too much to get across their emotions (such as Hope) and characters not saying enough (such as Lightning). While you can chalk this up to just how some people are (some people talk too much, others not enough), I do agree the Datalog could have been integrated better and exposition integrated more without bogging down the story.

God, do I wish more FF titles had New Game+. Crisis Core has one, too. I think New Game+ is a fine way to take a look at the story again. However, as linear as FF13 as, and so cut scene heavy, it makes replay value a little lower, at least immediately. Having both Post-story Play and New Game + would indeed be a dream come true!

I'm actually split fairly evenly between gen and slash, my two main genres. I also do some het and the occasional femslash. I'm pretty game to most things, but I admit that there's a certain level of discomfort from me about females in sexual situations. Too much identification, I think. It's one of the many reasons I find slash more comfortable. But I like gen really quite a lot (and ultimately, gen encompasses all the ships, since you can have ships in a genfic, they just don't command the story), so I'm good whatever way you like to take it. I left a comment on there last night. I liked it! I prefer the honest opinions myself, especially on test pieces. I got some great feedback and meta on Snow and Hope in my last piece, and I like that this fandom is happy to talk characters!

It is amusing how we had nothing, and then bam, something! I'm pleased to see it, though. I love activity in a fandom, it makes it feel fresh. Even for the games I'm not as fond of, I'm happy to see its fandom alive and well. Take, for example, FFX. I just made a little one-off rant on its beginning (not the whole game, mind you), and it made FF Press (to my surprise) and a lot of people came out to talk about it--some to commiserate and quite a few to defend it. That's good, imho, even if I was taken aback by the response. It means the fandom is thriving, and even after all these years, people still care. That's how it should be, for any fandom.

wounded_melody suggests above, l'Cie who turn to crystal are similar to the fayth in FFX in that they have a sort of limited omniscience. That could account for some of the things we see that the characters don't, like Cid's death.

FFX is my primary fandom, and despite its age it goes through bursts of activity from time to time, but lately it's been pretty quiet. I saw both your post and its inclusion in

ff_press. I've noticed that they've been listing more meta and other discussion in people's journals lately, which I think is an excellent way to get more of a cross-FF fandom going, although I know what you mean about being surprised when a post you weren't thinking of that way makes it in! I noticed the same thing you mentioned when FFXII first came out -- Final Fantasy is back in people's minds, and so there is a boost to all the fandoms, even the older ones, and this is excellent news for everyone. :)

I'm sorry, I never got far enough in FFX to find out about the Fayth (or if I did, I forgot--I realized that I forgot a lot of the game since the last time I played it). I don't really understand that comparison. I'd argue about the idea of "limited omniscience" (that phrase kinda cracks me up, though), mostly because the Cie'th missions indicate that being a crystal doesn't leave you with any sort of omniscience or knowledge of events outside your own crystal. I could agree that Fang and Vanille are special cases, since they chose to become Ragnarok and then crystallized, and everyone else was freed?

Well, it's obvious that FFX is my least favorite of the FF games. >.> But! Since it is Final Fantasy, I feel obligated to both play it and acknowledge its strengths (it does have them, imho, even if the flaws vastly outweigh these for me). My ultimate attachment is to the franchise, which I grew up with. So seeing new life being breathed into all the FF fandoms is awesome for me. I'm all for FF being back in people's minds. Hell, I'm replaying old games, myself (though I'm distracted by obsessively collecting trophies in FF13, and I almost have them all, just need to do the Treasure Hunter one, then beat Orphan with a 5-star, and then bam! Done! :D).

Edited 2010-04-17 23:19 (UTC)

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