Some more DA:I thoughts, spoilers through the Thing in Haven

[owlmoose]

Through the quest that you are meant to trigger at levels 8-11. (That Thing at Haven. You know, the Thing. With the people. And the stuff.) We were level 10, but at least for us I don't think it was enough. We've gone back to grind a bit, close out some areas we rushed past last time. I think we're 15 hours? Since I didn't finish the Thing, please no spoilers in comments for the Thing, or for after the Thing.


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As I think I mentioned, we went back and started over again to get the proper world state import. I don't know how much it's changed, but so far the only thing anyone has said that felt wrong was in a banter between Varric and Blackwall, in which Varric disparaged Sebastian (who, in the canon I'm playing here, never met Hawke), but everything else has worked so far. That said, I feel like the game is missing an opportunity to reference the fact that both the Hero of Ferelden and the Herald of Andrate are both lady dwarves. I can already tell that there are a number of missing conversations in my head that will show up in fic somewhere along the line.

So anyway, progress! We've cleared most of the Hinterlands and Storm Coast, went to Val Royeaux (possibly too early, but it's worked out okay I think), finished the major plot quest in the Fallow Mire, and then went to go deal with the mages -- Malika doesn't trust the rebel mages, they make her nervous, but she trusts the templars even less. (Meeting Fiona in Val Royeaux was rather a surprise, although on reflection it probably shouldn't have been.) Even realizing that she was going to have to deal with Tevinter cultists rather than the free mages she was expecting was not enough to change her mind. However, after her time travel adventures in Redcliffe (talk about the darkest timeline!), she decided (actually T decided; I might have been inclined the other way, but he talked me into it) to conscript them. If nothing else, I'm curious to see how it works out for Thedas in the long run.

I can only imagine how this particular plotline is going over with folks who identify with the mages in terms of social justice issues. In particular, I wonder how they feel about Vivienne, and her absolute belief in the old system. Elven apostate Solas vs. Circle loyalist Vivienne vs. Tevinter refugee Dorian makes for a fascinating series of contrasts. I really want to talk more to Fiona at some point, as a representative of the mage rebellion. Up to the point that we met with Fiona in Redcliffe, almost every non-companion mage we spoke with had been happy in the Circle and unhappy with being forced to leave, which puts rather a different face on the issue than DA2 or even DA:O ever did. It is, truly, a complicated situation, and not so simple to map to issues of oppression in our world. Can anyone tell me, is it possible to find Fiona in Haven before The Thing and talk to her? Or will it have to wait until after?

Anyway, so then we went back to Haven and we got overrun by red glowy templars led by CORIPHEROUS* holy crap I did not see that coming. (*possibly misspelled, but I don't want to risk looking it up.) And then I don't really know what happens after that because we couldn't get past the part of the battle where you go after the dragon with the trebuchet, but I'm really curious to find out.

(Also, of course, Alistair and Anora cameo. Blink and you miss it, but it was well placed. It would only have been better if Arl Teagan (Arl Teagan! Headcanon validated!) had been along, too. It's a bit sad that Alistair reaches his last limit with the mages -- and that's got to have been a rough moment for Fiona -- but I can't blame him one bit.)

Comments

[jaininae]

Can anyone tell me, is it possible to find Fiona in Haven before The Thing and talk to her? Or will it have to wait until after?

You'll be able to talk to her afterward after The Thing ;). She sticks around since you're supporting the mages.

[owlmoose]

Okay, cool, good to know. Thanks! :)

[phdfan]

Yep, that fight is ridiculously hard. The easiest, although longest, way to do it is to turn the cog one click at a time, deal with the enemies that spawned, and then do it again about a thousand more times.

[owlmoose]

The problem was, we were down to something like one potion by the time the boss appeared, so we were pretty much doomed. T found some strategy suggestions, though, so I hope it goes better next time, and that the shiny new level helps a bit. ;) I miss healing magic.

[sarasa_cat]

It makes a lot of sense for a dwarf to conscript the mages when in that situation. I think anything else would require headcanoning a very interesting and unique dwarf.

TBH, for most Inquisitor backstories I would have a hard time coming up with straightforward RP reasons for freeing and allying with the mages given what they have done from 9:37-9:41, particularly after the Inquisitor sees Fiona's decisions. The only believable/easy RP exception I can think of is my circle mage Trevelyan (canonically, is from a rather mild and sedate circle) who allied rather than conscripted if only to prove that mages can put together a new system and because conscripting felt like being on Cassandra's leash. ;)

I searched most of Haven for Fiona but did not find her, which is curious. I also searched for Alexius, whom I kept alive but no luck either. Perhaps I did not search hard enough for them or perhaps they aren't part of Haven's cast.

Regarding Fiona and the rebellion she led, have you read Asunder? Writing style aside, it paints a complex picture of magic in Thedas. It also introduces Cole's story. Fiona and the full rebellion is shown in an ... interesting light, shall we say?

...which puts rather a different face on the issue than DA2 or even DA:O ever did...

Not true. DA2 and DAO both showed a range of attitudes, similar to DAI, but you need to be a careful player to find it. You need to speak with every unnamed NPC in the mage origin story in DAO. In DA2, you just need to be alert to minor conversations although DA2 has far less than DAO+DLCs. On the other hand, Asunder paints a picture far closer to DAI.

As for what fandom thinks ... it appears to be a shock to some. I've seen this coming for a few years though. Nothing in DAI has surprised me. I could have written most of the characters' lines.

[owlmoose]

TBH, for most Inquisitor backstories I would have a hard time coming up with straightforward RP reasons for freeing and allying with the mages given what they have done from 9:37-9:41, particularly after the Inquisitor sees Fiona's decisions.

Depending on who the Inquisitor has talked to, and what spin the player has on events, I can see it. People besides a mage who has lived within the system can see, I think, that the Circle system is entirely broken and that the mages who've broken from it are unlikely to go back. We really wanted a third option, somewhere in between "the mages are conscripted" (no better than the Circles and then what the magister would have done to them) and "mages are full allies willing to do what they wish". We would have liked to give them some sort of provisional status.

Not true. DA2 and DAO both showed a range of attitudes, similar to DAI, but you need to be a careful player to find it.

No, you're right, my comment was sloppily worded. But it is true that, in DAI, you do not have to be a particularly careful player to find this attitude. Until you get to Redcliffe, really the only representative for mage freedom is Solas, and he's never been a part of the system. That's why I'm so interested to speak to Fiona and get her real take on the situation.

I spent a bunch of time looking for Alexius, too, because Dorian mentioned that he was there. Couldn't find him, though. Maybe, like Fiona, he'll be available for conversation once I finish the Thing. I'd also be interested to speak to Felix.

I've read all the post DA2 tie-in media, because I thought there was a good chance that stuff from the books (and maybe the comics, although I'd bank less on that) were going to show up in DA:I, and so far I have not been disappointed. It's useful to know the background of the mage politics and how the Circles ended up in near-full rebellion and of the Orlesian civil war; nothing from Last Flight has appeared yet, but I expect it will once we get deeper into the mystery of the missing Wardens. Cole showed up during the Thing (which was not a surprise since I knew he was a companion, but I'd forgotten so it was surprising in the moment), but of course we haven't had an opportunity to really interact with him yet.

[sarasa_cat]

Based the level of questioning and side-eying surprise that most people have expressed since my Inquisitor made the decision to free the mages and given what has been shown in the canon, I still think it a more unique situation for a non-mage to free the mages. It is something that would appeal to players who project American cultural ideals into the game, but it seems a rare stance if RPing from a canon-grounded perspective. Of course, that shouldn't stop someone from creating headcanon and backstory to support such a character but they would certainly be in the minority given what canon has shown so far and for good reason.

I'm still searching for Alexius and Felix after The Thing. Haven't had a lot of time because after The Thing, so much is opened up and there is much to do just messing around in Skyhold. But they are on my list of people to find. Fiona was very easy to find and ... interesting. Definitely worth speaking to (points up to my first paragraph).


I haven't had a chance to read anything besides Asunder (three years ago), the comics (when they came out), and World of Thedas. I'm of mixed mind with how heavily the game relies on DLCs and tie-ins because I suspect people would find the story confusing if they don't know and what is going on. The game expects you to know a good deal about a very large cast of people.


...but I'd forgotten...

Poor Cole. People are always forgetting about him. ;D

[owlmoose]

I'll be *very* curious to come back to fandom and see what the reactions are like, and how many of the hard-core mage freedom folks gave the mages full autonomy and then don't like the NPCs reactions. One thing that I have noticed, in this early-ish going (it's actually been more like 25 hours than 15), is just how angry Varric is with Anders.

I suppose, regarding the tie-in connections, is just how much the game assumes you know. Is it vital to the plot, or does the game give you enough context to follow? I've been explaining the significance of characters and things to T as they come up, but I don't get the feeling that he'd be lost without that, he'd just be missing some nuances. But of course I can't really say for sure.

BTW, I had figured, from stray comments I'm seeing outside cuts and such, that Skyhold is what comes after The Thing, but I didn't actually know that until now. ;) So, just a quick reminder to take a little more care in what info you drop in comments. Thanks!

Poor Cole. People are always forgetting about him. ;D

That is pretty ironic, and/or appropriate, now that you mention it. :D

[sarasa_cat]

Varric's anger: I have played DA2 enough times to see the seeds of Varric's anger -- the simmering under a lidded pot. Varric is a cleverly written character beneath the surface layer of showmanship, appeal, and feigned neutrality. His Act 3 banter with Anders foreshadows the Varric you saw in the beginning of DAI. Same goes for a few bits of subtext in DA2's framestory with Varric and Cassandra. It was important for Varric to appear as neutral as possible in DA2 because of his role as the story's narrator. Also, the writers could have taken Varric in a different direction from what you have seen so far in DAI.

Hard to say where fandom will settle 3 to 6 months from now but when all is said and done, a new normal will be found.

The relationship between fandom and canon for games like Bioware's will always be strained because these kinds of games are designed for you to create your own story using existing pieces of material. Based on some of the ripping apart I've done to expose DAO's & DA2's innards (using the DAO toolkit, the DA2 debugger, and various 3rd party tools), some of the writing is purposefully ambiguous, allowing the player to feel like they are making the correct decision no matter which path they take. So, talking about what is and isn't canon doesn't always make sense when claiming what the games do or do not say, especially when the game says "anything you do is okay." ;) Instead, you sometimes need to step up to the level of meta-canon by exposing all possible dialogue paths for a particular character or plot event. But meta-canon isn't story in the way that story is experienced by players during immersive play. Instead, the meta-canon starts to reveal authorial intent and how the games allow for certain kinds of RP experiences while disallowing or contradicting other RP experiences. The meta-canon defines the walls of the RP playground. Play in the middle, just where the writers expected you to play, and you can RP to your heart's content. Play off to the side and you keep bumping against the chain link fence. For instance, I kept banging into that fence during critical moments in DA:O when Alistair had nothing to say about what he wanted to get out of Landsmeet. As for fandom and where this all settles out after people digest DAI? *shrug* It is a story construction kit rather than a story. People will select the pieces that are most useful for the kinds of stories they want to tell. Although, I hope that once all is said and done, the fandom is less monotone.


Regarding tie-ins, curious how you will feel as you get further in? Also curious about how I will feel too...

The Thing and what comes next: sorry about that. I thought you knew or had gotten that far based on other comments over here. Again, sorry. If you haven't yet finished The Thing, good luck with that battle.