Not so much a book review as a request for conversation

[owlmoose]

After years of meaning to read Octavia Butler's work, I finished Lilith's Brood yesterday, and now I want to talk about it.

In the end, I'm not completely certain what to make of this book. For an author I have so often heard described as feminist and ground-breaking, I was surprised to find so much gender essentialism and heteronormativity, along with such strong "biology is destiny" themes. In a conversation with my friend S, she pointed out that feminism in the late 1980s (when these books were written) was quite gender essentialist and heteronormative, so it may be a product of its times, but the heteronormativity, especially, struck me right away and kept bothering me throughout. Also bothersome: the pervasiveness of sexual situations wherein the consent is dubious at best. This book features coerced sex, forced pregnancy, and all kinds of invasions of bodily autonomy. Unlike with the previous issues, the idea of questionable consent is raised throughout -- the reader is forced to notice it, and think about it. So I'm pretty sure I was meant to find it disturbing and uncomfortable, but I can't be 100% sure. I'll need to sit with it for awhile.

All that said, it was an impressive book , especially for a debut novel [edit: I was incorrect about this, not sure where I got that impression, thanks to firecat for the correction], and I'm glad to have read it. But more than anything, I'm left wanting to discuss it, and I'm sure at least some of you have read it. So, what are your thoughts?

Other topics for conversation: the social structure of the Oankali, the book's critiques of colonialism, the implications of an Earth left bereft of technology and repopulated almost entirely by people of color, and whether human nature is really as bleak and terrible as it's depicted here.

Comments

[the_rck]

I read these books in between 1990 and 1993 (I remember where I lived when I read them. Otherwise, I couldn't narrow it down that far). I was just out of college and not a particularly deep reader. I knew that the writing was excellent, but I'm not sure I completely understood what was going on.

Someone, somewhere, commented that Octavia Butler's stories were really about what people do when all of their options are bad. I think that's true. I think also that people labeling her as primarily a feminist author aren't admitting that she was also a black author in the US. I think that both of those things need to be considered. I find myself wondering how much of this story comes out of the pretty horrific history of black women in the US being denied control of their own bodies. Feminist issues are still very different for women who aren't white (and cis and het and...). (I'm white, so my understanding is seriously limited and at a considerable remove.)

Race is still a huge issue in the US and a very uncomfortable one for white folks who'd love to think it's over and done. I'd be very curious to hear from black readers as to whether they think Butler wrote from an intersection of feminism and race or purely from one or the other. Are they really separable in that way?

[owlmoose]

Good points. I tried to keep the racial context in mind as I was reading, both within the story and as an external issue, in particular the bodily autonomy aspect you mention. Where I think I'm having trouble is this: are the Oankali supposed to be sympathetic? If so, does that undermine the points about nonconsensual sex and medical intervention that it feels like the book is trying to make? That's been my main point of struggle, because for the most part I thought the Oankali were sympathetically portrayed.

But I do want to emphasize that I am coming at this as a white lady who is trying to do better on race issues, and I know I don't always succeed. So I agree with your last paragraph a lot.

Someone, somewhere, commented that Octavia Butler's stories were really about what people do when all of their options are bad.

That's a really apt here, I agree entirely.

[sarasa_cat]

I think it is unfair and, tbh, even a bit naive to attempt to read this book through the lens of liberal (white, american) feminism. This trilogy is a textbook-turned-fiction on colonialism that heavily references post-colonial theory, and it is all about the colonized female experience. In as such, it is more of a horror story and an allegory. The social sci fic aspect is about Lilith attempting to find a new/different (untried) way to move beyond colonialism and being colonized (which is impossible from a post-colonialist view point, which is what makes this such a compelling topic for an sf epic).

Perhaps google "lilith's brood post-colonial theory" for another way of understanding this?

[owlmoose]

Thanks for the pointer to further information. Most of what's out there seems to be buried in academic texts and papers that are behind paywalls, but I'll see what I can find.

I do realize that white feminism is not the best lens for viewing -- well, anything, really, but this text in particular. And that my knowledge of the development of intersectional feminism and the history of how the critique of liberal feminism evolved is somewhat limited. That's why I started here, by asking questions about the aspects of the texts that didn't sit right with me, rather than by jumping straight into attempting any deeper analysis. I wanted to get more perspectives and discover what I'm sure I was missing. I did pick up on the colonialism aspects, and if I decide I want to go more deeply into this book and Butler's work, I'll certainly do my best to learn more about post-colonialism.

Probably I should have just posted a link to here from Tumblr rather than inviting comments there, since Tumblr is such a poor venue for this sort of conversation. This is to say that I saw your comments there and prefer to engage with them here, instead of trying to talk through them in reblogs/replies. I appreciate the correction on the timeline regarding critiques of white feminism -- which tells me that Butler's work falls within that time frame, not beforehand as I had thought possible. I am aware that gender is socially and culturally constructed. Throughout the book, it seemed to me that gender, gender roles, and heterosexuality were treated as innate biological imperatives, not social constructs. But I accept that I may be missing something.

[sarasa_cat]

Short time limited response:

Applying feminism to something is like applying science or applying philosophy. Which branch of science, which methods. Or, which branch of philosophy?

I've been watching this whole discussion not really knowing where to start because no one is even naming a particular branch of feminism or a particular feminist. Merely citing popular culture's version of feminism circa 2016 is just asking for a mess because What Does That Word Even Mean?!

You really cannot do any book justice from a feminist POV until you operationalize your feminism: pick a particular branch of feminism and one to three people who theorize that branch.

More later.

(agreed - tumblr is too hard to do and I am mostly stuck with cell phone replies right now).

[owlmoose]

I feel like we are at cross-purposes here. In this comment, and some of your others, you edge awfully close to suggesting that it's not possible to discuss difficult texts without a graduate-level grounding in multiple areas of theory, and that's a premise I take strong issue with. It would be one thing if I were holding myself out as an expert on Octavia Butler and/or "Lilith's Brood": if I were trying to write a dissertation, teach a class, make any sort of definitive statement. But that's not my purpose here, at all (and although I thought I made that clear, if I didn't, then that's on me). I'm looking at my own reactions to the book (which come from the lens of a 2016 white feminist working to learn more about race, sexuality, and other areas of intersectionality, a framework I freely admitted from the very beginning) and looking to put them in a wider context. Not every discussion needs to be thoroughly researched -- if nothing else, not everyone has the time or energy to devote. SF/F fandom has room for conversations about difficult topics at all levels, from 101 to 202 to graduate seminar and beyond.

Now if you, personally, are only interested in graduate seminar conversation, I can respect that. Not everyone is going to be up for participating in or leading people through a 101 discussion, and that's fine. But as a former educator, and just through my life experiences generally, I believe in meeting people where they are, and to impose a particular level of discourse in someone else's space is not appropriate.

This isn't to say that I don't appreciate the suggestions for areas of further study, because I do. In particular, I find the pointers toward anti-colonialsim and queer theory helpful, so thanks for those -- it's always good to discover where my gaps are. If I decide to take a more formal approach to Butler's work, I'll certainly take a closer look in those areas.

[sarasa_cat]

Yes, but if you are trying to understand something that you don't understand because you lack the experience, you are not going to do that thing justice if you randomly apply criteria that do not fit.

Someone with lived experience in the things that butler writes about doesn't need any formal education to get it. People who are missing all of the metaphors and parallels need to go do their homework.

This is the responsibility of Anglo-white women educated at posh universities before publicly taking down the work of a woman who is a POC, doing this on a public internet space, especially when one has a voice in the space that woman wrote in (in your case, the sff fandom blogging space, given your work as an editor/writer for an award nominated blog- congrats again on that nom!).

Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[sarasa_cat]

Let me explain why I have found the act of *reading* these threads of conversation on DW and Tumblr very frustrating.

First, the necessary identity statement: I am not a black american nor do I claim to fully understand the experiences of black american women but I have a lifetime of lived experience as a colonized & post-colonial person in a female presenting body, and I know damn well what intersectional prejudice looks like, ranging from daily micro-aggressions, direct prejudice, and a handful of very unsafe experiences where my life, property, and well being were at threat. In short, I don't see the world through the eyes of white anglo-american privilege. Regarding Butler, I was introduced to her fiction by another writer -- a person whom americans would classify as a POC -- and this person read my original fiction over a decade ago and said that my approach to creepily describing the colonized female body reminded her just a little of Butler's work which she then recommended with great enthusiasm.

Now for my list of frustrations:

1. I get that Butler's writings make you uncomfortable. Personally, I find the discomfort validating but I can imagine how white anglo-american women might find the discomfort hard to grapple with. That said, the entire thread of discussion here and on Tumblr reads from the Other's point of view like a white anglo-american woman is trying to receive validation for her discomfort by **discrediting* Butler's position. While this probably is NOT your intent given your verbal history of inclusive leanings, this threads of discussion have been, dare I say, very white, and not in a good way *nor* in a way that invites discussion from anyone with other experiences. (which may be why no one else from the Other category beyond myself has bitten, and even I don't know where to begin without mildly hyperventilating as I read).

2. Ignorance is okay. Really. We are all ignorant about many things. But some conversations might be better in places that aren't google-findable, especially given your small but wonderfully notable position in the SF/F world. Merely putting this entire discussion behind friends lock and never putting it on tumblr would have been, imho, a much better move because when this kind of discussion is made public like this and written in the tone you are using, your white priv is showing and it is sending very aggressive signals telling the rest of us that we don't see the world in the Right Way(tm). It is a mother of a tiring struggle for everyone who doesn't have full anglo-american white priv to come hang out in english speaking SF/F/Spec/Gaming fandom because much of this space wasn't built for us and we are reminded daily. Thus, whenever a white person posts publicly to dump on a fan or a creator who doesn't have white privs, I just gotta wonder WHY are they doing this publicly.

3. I am really annoyed whenever the liberal side of the anglo-american white world plays the double standard game. You(plural) claim you want diversity but not if those expressions of diverse experiences make you(plural) uncomfortable. And then you(plural) claim that it is too difficult to something that the rest of us understand without going to school for it. Well, if you(singular) want to understand it, you just need to go educate yourself and telling me that I'm forcing a graduate seminar on you is a big fat double standard.

...

I am only posting these things because I *trust* you (you personally) enough to read this without going nonlinear and starting yet another YT Jihad in SF/F/Spec just because I have probably said things here that have hurt your feelings (Despite you probably not realizing how racially loaded the language is in all the threads of convo here and on tumblr that make me toss my hands in the air).

Re: Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[owlmoose]

I'm at a con this weekend and I got up very, very early for a morning flight, so I'm not in an appropriate headspace to give a response the attention your comments deserve. But I wanted to let you know that I saw it, and will be reading and considering it over the next few days.

Quickly, though: you are right that I did not mean to discredit Butler and her work, and I agree that I could have worded my initial comments and responses more clearly and carefully, and also that I should not have crossposted to Tumblr.

Re: Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[sarasa_cat]

Which con? I hope it is a lot of fun!!!!

(No hurry on your reply- when I am not stuck mostly on cell phone for replies I can be more helpful with post colonial perspectives with respect to sff & spec.

Have fun.

Re: Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[owlmoose]

WisCon! I've wanted to check it out for years and now I finally am. :) Thanks!

Re: Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[sarasa_cat]

Whoo! Looking forward to any updates you make about Wiscon.

[alias_sqbr]

I don't feel able to give a very informed point of view: Her books are all very much rooted in her experiences as a black American woman, so I feel like half the meaning goes over my head. Which still leaves me with a more interesting reading experience than I get from most white Australian authors :)

Anyway, I think she was a fascinating author but flawed and not for everyone. I feel like she did explore gender roles, so wouldn't describe her as "heteronormative" exactly, but there is an unspoken assumption of universal straightness (or it's equivalent as with the aliens) that I found annoying. She does a bit better in later books but it was still a weak point compared to her clear sightedness and subversiveness in other respects.

One of her strengths, to my mind, is always walking that line of uncomfortable ambivalence: were humans saved, or enslaved? What are the boundaries of consent and freedom? How much of either is it worthwhile giving up for security? And she doesn't flinch from the consequences of difficult choices, which means her endings are never neat and satisfying with a clear moral. There is a theme of biology as destiny but viewed largely with horror, not approval, I'd say.

Wild Seed is my favourite book of hers I've read, a really fantastic story about the complicated, centuries long relationship between two immortals, one of whom sees mortal people as her equals and the other as means to an end. The other books in that series looked too depressing so I haven't read them.

I really liked The Parable of the Sower for it's depiction of a plausible near future, especially the exploration of race and class.

I've had a copy of Kindred sitting on my bookshelf for months but haven't gotten up the courage to read it yet.

[the_rck]

The other books in the series with Wildseed are much more depressing. I'm not sorry to have read them, but because I read Wildseed first, I was kind of disappointed because I wanted more of that. Patternmaster is set in a far future, so I could look at it as disconnected. Mind of My Mind and Clay's Ark each chronicle the start of different huge changes in a shared world, changes that will conflict terribly with each other once things get to the world of Patternmaster.

I haven't touched Kindred or The Parable of the Sower because I've been feeling too fragile for them for many years. I'm very glad to have read some of Butler's work. I just... I can't cope right now. Maybe a few years down the road and maybe not.

[alias_sqbr]

nods I feel that way about Kindred.

[owlmoose]

Definitely agree with you on it being a worthwhile reading experience, and being interested to read more. So far, I think Parable of the Sower is the one I'm most likely to pick up next.

I feel like she did explore gender roles, so wouldn't describe her as "heteronormative" exactly, but there is an unspoken assumption of universal straightness (or it's equivalent as with the aliens) that I found annoying.

This was most jarring, for me, in the scene where Lilith was waking up her first group of 40 colonists, and she is consciously pairing them all up, and it doesn't even seem to occur to her that one or more of them might be gay or lesbian. I understand why it would be was necessary to make the Oankali plan work, but I would have like to see it at least addressed. I agree that heteronormative is not exactly the right word.

One of her strengths, to my mind, is always walking that line of uncomfortable ambivalence: were humans saved, or enslaved?

This, I think, is exactly the dichotomy that I was having difficulty with; thanks for putting it into words. Is humanity saved, enslaved, or both? Was it worth the price? I haven't decided yet, and maybe whole point is that there is no clear answer. I don't always need my books to need clear good guys vs. bad guys, and I can be good with uncomfortable endings. I just need to settle with them for awhile, and I think I'm still in the settling in phase. Fair point on "biology is destiny" being viewed as something horrific, both within the world of the story (I'm thinking mainly of the Oankali reaction to Mars) and for the reader.

[sarasa_cat]

uh.......... If you google "Octavia butler queer theory" and "Octavia butler womanism" ou will get a number of hits that aren't behind paywalls. I'm really confused by this thread of conversation above because I feel like unfair/misplaced/misinformed criteria are being applied.

[firecat]

Lilith's Brood is not a debut novel, BTW. She published several novels before Dawn and even more before the final book in the trilogy.

Yes you're supposed to find it disturbing and uncomfortable. Octavia Butler did pretty much think that biology put huge constraints on what humans are capable of (primarily, she thought that human biology requires humans to live in a hierarchical structure, and that living in a hierarchical structure causes us damage). Almost all of her work explores the way hierarchy and power-over play out in characters' lives, including the ways they affect sexual relationships.

Yes, one doesn't see twenty-teens political sensibilities mirrored in her works.

I don't think human nature is as bleak and terrible as it is depicted here, but I also think Butler was very smart and observant, so I worry that she was right.

[firecat]

PS: I'm white and have an inadequate sense for what she's saying about race in her work.

[owlmoose]

Sorry about the publishing order error! I struck that reference from the post.

Yes you're supposed to find it disturbing and uncomfortable.

And I'm good with that. I would find the book much more bothersome if it hadn't been on purpose. As I mentioned to alias_sqbr above, I appreciate a book that disturbs me in thought-provoking ways, but I need to settle in with it a bit, and asking other people what they think is part of that process for me. So I appreciate your thoughts.

[sarasa_cat]

Yes you're supposed to find it disturbing and uncomfortable.

There is an old quote, "Art should comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable" (or comfort the disturbed and disturbed the comfortable). The deep discomfort that works like Butler's creates can do two things: open people's eyes to an experience that just isn't part of their geocultural-political realities and comfort people who experience similar things by telling them "yes, it isn't all in your head, this shit is real."