Not so much a book review as a request for conversation

[owlmoose]

After years of meaning to read Octavia Butler's work, I finished Lilith's Brood yesterday, and now I want to talk about it.

In the end, I'm not completely certain what to make of this book. For an author I have so often heard described as feminist and ground-breaking, I was surprised to find so much gender essentialism and heteronormativity, along with such strong "biology is destiny" themes. In a conversation with my friend S, she pointed out that feminism in the late 1980s (when these books were written) was quite gender essentialist and heteronormative, so it may be a product of its times, but the heteronormativity, especially, struck me right away and kept bothering me throughout. Also bothersome: the pervasiveness of sexual situations wherein the consent is dubious at best. This book features coerced sex, forced pregnancy, and all kinds of invasions of bodily autonomy. Unlike with the previous issues, the idea of questionable consent is raised throughout -- the reader is forced to notice it, and think about it. So I'm pretty sure I was meant to find it disturbing and uncomfortable, but I can't be 100% sure. I'll need to sit with it for awhile.

All that said, it was an impressive book , especially for a debut novel [edit: I was incorrect about this, not sure where I got that impression, thanks to firecat for the correction], and I'm glad to have read it. But more than anything, I'm left wanting to discuss it, and I'm sure at least some of you have read it. So, what are your thoughts?

Other topics for conversation: the social structure of the Oankali, the book's critiques of colonialism, the implications of an Earth left bereft of technology and repopulated almost entirely by people of color, and whether human nature is really as bleak and terrible as it's depicted here.

Comments

[owlmoose]

Thanks for the pointer to further information. Most of what's out there seems to be buried in academic texts and papers that are behind paywalls, but I'll see what I can find.

I do realize that white feminism is not the best lens for viewing -- well, anything, really, but this text in particular. And that my knowledge of the development of intersectional feminism and the history of how the critique of liberal feminism evolved is somewhat limited. That's why I started here, by asking questions about the aspects of the texts that didn't sit right with me, rather than by jumping straight into attempting any deeper analysis. I wanted to get more perspectives and discover what I'm sure I was missing. I did pick up on the colonialism aspects, and if I decide I want to go more deeply into this book and Butler's work, I'll certainly do my best to learn more about post-colonialism.

Probably I should have just posted a link to here from Tumblr rather than inviting comments there, since Tumblr is such a poor venue for this sort of conversation. This is to say that I saw your comments there and prefer to engage with them here, instead of trying to talk through them in reblogs/replies. I appreciate the correction on the timeline regarding critiques of white feminism -- which tells me that Butler's work falls within that time frame, not beforehand as I had thought possible. I am aware that gender is socially and culturally constructed. Throughout the book, it seemed to me that gender, gender roles, and heterosexuality were treated as innate biological imperatives, not social constructs. But I accept that I may be missing something.

[sarasa_cat]

Short time limited response:

Applying feminism to something is like applying science or applying philosophy. Which branch of science, which methods. Or, which branch of philosophy?

I've been watching this whole discussion not really knowing where to start because no one is even naming a particular branch of feminism or a particular feminist. Merely citing popular culture's version of feminism circa 2016 is just asking for a mess because What Does That Word Even Mean?!

You really cannot do any book justice from a feminist POV until you operationalize your feminism: pick a particular branch of feminism and one to three people who theorize that branch.

More later.

(agreed - tumblr is too hard to do and I am mostly stuck with cell phone replies right now).

[owlmoose]

I feel like we are at cross-purposes here. In this comment, and some of your others, you edge awfully close to suggesting that it's not possible to discuss difficult texts without a graduate-level grounding in multiple areas of theory, and that's a premise I take strong issue with. It would be one thing if I were holding myself out as an expert on Octavia Butler and/or "Lilith's Brood": if I were trying to write a dissertation, teach a class, make any sort of definitive statement. But that's not my purpose here, at all (and although I thought I made that clear, if I didn't, then that's on me). I'm looking at my own reactions to the book (which come from the lens of a 2016 white feminist working to learn more about race, sexuality, and other areas of intersectionality, a framework I freely admitted from the very beginning) and looking to put them in a wider context. Not every discussion needs to be thoroughly researched -- if nothing else, not everyone has the time or energy to devote. SF/F fandom has room for conversations about difficult topics at all levels, from 101 to 202 to graduate seminar and beyond.

Now if you, personally, are only interested in graduate seminar conversation, I can respect that. Not everyone is going to be up for participating in or leading people through a 101 discussion, and that's fine. But as a former educator, and just through my life experiences generally, I believe in meeting people where they are, and to impose a particular level of discourse in someone else's space is not appropriate.

This isn't to say that I don't appreciate the suggestions for areas of further study, because I do. In particular, I find the pointers toward anti-colonialsim and queer theory helpful, so thanks for those -- it's always good to discover where my gaps are. If I decide to take a more formal approach to Butler's work, I'll certainly take a closer look in those areas.

[sarasa_cat]

Yes, but if you are trying to understand something that you don't understand because you lack the experience, you are not going to do that thing justice if you randomly apply criteria that do not fit.

Someone with lived experience in the things that butler writes about doesn't need any formal education to get it. People who are missing all of the metaphors and parallels need to go do their homework.

This is the responsibility of Anglo-white women educated at posh universities before publicly taking down the work of a woman who is a POC, doing this on a public internet space, especially when one has a voice in the space that woman wrote in (in your case, the sff fandom blogging space, given your work as an editor/writer for an award nominated blog- congrats again on that nom!).

Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[sarasa_cat]

Let me explain why I have found the act of *reading* these threads of conversation on DW and Tumblr very frustrating.

First, the necessary identity statement: I am not a black american nor do I claim to fully understand the experiences of black american women but I have a lifetime of lived experience as a colonized & post-colonial person in a female presenting body, and I know damn well what intersectional prejudice looks like, ranging from daily micro-aggressions, direct prejudice, and a handful of very unsafe experiences where my life, property, and well being were at threat. In short, I don't see the world through the eyes of white anglo-american privilege. Regarding Butler, I was introduced to her fiction by another writer -- a person whom americans would classify as a POC -- and this person read my original fiction over a decade ago and said that my approach to creepily describing the colonized female body reminded her just a little of Butler's work which she then recommended with great enthusiasm.

Now for my list of frustrations:

1. I get that Butler's writings make you uncomfortable. Personally, I find the discomfort validating but I can imagine how white anglo-american women might find the discomfort hard to grapple with. That said, the entire thread of discussion here and on Tumblr reads from the Other's point of view like a white anglo-american woman is trying to receive validation for her discomfort by **discrediting* Butler's position. While this probably is NOT your intent given your verbal history of inclusive leanings, this threads of discussion have been, dare I say, very white, and not in a good way *nor* in a way that invites discussion from anyone with other experiences. (which may be why no one else from the Other category beyond myself has bitten, and even I don't know where to begin without mildly hyperventilating as I read).

2. Ignorance is okay. Really. We are all ignorant about many things. But some conversations might be better in places that aren't google-findable, especially given your small but wonderfully notable position in the SF/F world. Merely putting this entire discussion behind friends lock and never putting it on tumblr would have been, imho, a much better move because when this kind of discussion is made public like this and written in the tone you are using, your white priv is showing and it is sending very aggressive signals telling the rest of us that we don't see the world in the Right Way(tm). It is a mother of a tiring struggle for everyone who doesn't have full anglo-american white priv to come hang out in english speaking SF/F/Spec/Gaming fandom because much of this space wasn't built for us and we are reminded daily. Thus, whenever a white person posts publicly to dump on a fan or a creator who doesn't have white privs, I just gotta wonder WHY are they doing this publicly.

3. I am really annoyed whenever the liberal side of the anglo-american white world plays the double standard game. You(plural) claim you want diversity but not if those expressions of diverse experiences make you(plural) uncomfortable. And then you(plural) claim that it is too difficult to something that the rest of us understand without going to school for it. Well, if you(singular) want to understand it, you just need to go educate yourself and telling me that I'm forcing a graduate seminar on you is a big fat double standard.

...

I am only posting these things because I *trust* you (you personally) enough to read this without going nonlinear and starting yet another YT Jihad in SF/F/Spec just because I have probably said things here that have hurt your feelings (Despite you probably not realizing how racially loaded the language is in all the threads of convo here and on tumblr that make me toss my hands in the air).

Re: Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[owlmoose]

I'm at a con this weekend and I got up very, very early for a morning flight, so I'm not in an appropriate headspace to give a response the attention your comments deserve. But I wanted to let you know that I saw it, and will be reading and considering it over the next few days.

Quickly, though: you are right that I did not mean to discredit Butler and her work, and I agree that I could have worded my initial comments and responses more clearly and carefully, and also that I should not have crossposted to Tumblr.

Re: Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[sarasa_cat]

Which con? I hope it is a lot of fun!!!!

(No hurry on your reply- when I am not stuck mostly on cell phone for replies I can be more helpful with post colonial perspectives with respect to sff & spec.

Have fun.

Re: Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[owlmoose]

WisCon! I've wanted to check it out for years and now I finally am. :) Thanks!

Re: Addendum now that I have a laptop + internet for easier reply

[sarasa_cat]

Whoo! Looking forward to any updates you make about Wiscon.