owlmoose | Late in the evening

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Late in the evening

Past midnight and T isn't home yet. He must be liking his job.

Still loving the Brahms. Loving it even more now that singing isn't sending me into copious coughing fits (just two during the three-hour rehersal). I guess that means the cold is almost gone. About time! After chorus I grabbed dinner with D & P, and we got into a discussion about the definition of "sandwich". Specifically, we were trying to decide whether a hamburger is sandwich. At the basic core of the definition, I think you have to say yes -- food between two pieces of bread is a sandwich, yes? But P pointed out that if you asked someone to get you a burger by referring to it as a " sandwich", they would likely be confused. Maybe a burger fits the textbook definition of sandwich, but no one really calls it that. So that lead us into trying to come up with the characteristics that would differentiate a burger from a sandwich. In the end, we decided that the patty form factor for the meat (or whatever -- one needs to account for veggie burgers, after all) is the key distinction. P still wouldn't concede that my fried chicken breast on a bun was a "sandwich", though, although eventually he decided to agree that it isn't a burger. I think he wanted a third term, but we couldn't come up with one.

It's fun, having pedantic friends. (I'm not kidding. I really do think that. All kinds of wacky discussions result. I enjoy them.)

Scratch that first line -- he just walked in. And a cat walked out. Damn; I thought they were past the escaping phase. Too much to hope for, I guess. At least they've gotten less aggressive about it.

The Tuesday song game will go up at 9:30am PST or thereabouts.

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Does he argue a meatloaf sandwich? If so, I'd like to hear him differentiate between a slice of meatloaf (or spam) and a hamburger.

Meatloaf didn't come up, but I like it as a counter-example. I think, based on our discussion, that he would call meatloaf sandwich a "sandwich" rather than a "burger"; I know I would. So then, what is the difference there? The form factor? ("slice" of ground meat versus "patty" of ground meat) The use of a bun? (but one can eat hamburgers on sliced bread -- I had one for dinner yesterday) Hmm, interesting wrinke.

Ooo, let's be pedantic! I'm pretty sure I've seen on menus burger-like items containing chicken, called a grilled chicken sandwitch. Now I could be remembering wrong, but I am pretty sure these things were on buns, not normal bread, so that can't be the dintinction. I'm really not sure what makes a burger - maybe the form factor, as you said, but that grilled chicken sandwitch came pretty close. Hmmm....

Nice new layout, by the way!

I'm pretty sure I've seen on menus burger-like items containing chicken, called a grilled chicken sandwitch. Now I could be remembering wrong, but I am pretty sure these things were on buns, not normal bread, so that can't be the dintinction.

This is the kind of sandwich I was eating last night -- fried chicken breast on a hamburger bun. On some menus, these types of sandwiches are listed in the burger section, but at this particular restaurant it was listed with the sandwichs, and burgers had their own separate section.

I think the main difference between these sandwiches and burgers is the meat being ground and formed into a patty shape. But, as others have mentioned, this leaves us with gray area regarding other ground meat sandwiches -- meat loaf, spam, sausage. I'm not sure what the difference is here.

Nice new layout, by the way!

Thanks. :) I decided it was time for a change. And then I stumbled across the matching butterfly icon and knew it was fate...

I have heard a hamburger referred to as a 'hamburger sandwich' and read the same phrase in some books. I would vote for permitting everything involving a filling (of any kind) between two pieces of bread (of any kind) and eaten from the hand generally without the use of utensils to be termed 'sandwich'. I, too, thought of the meatloaf as a formed shape on the same order as a pattie. Did your conversation include open-faced sandwiches - which usually require at least a fork and is not eaten from the hand? Perhaps this is only a sandwich by courtesy as some persons are included in the family even though they are not related by blood or marriage.

Then, of course, there are the other usages: ie. sandwich cookies, sandwiched between two people, and so on. English is nothing if not flexible.

Did your conversation include open-faced sandwiches - which usually require at least a fork and is not eaten from the hand?

Ooh, good point! No, we didn't discuss open-face sandwiches. I like your "sandwich-by-courtesy" description. There's also the fold-over sandwich, which is filling on a single piece of bread, but like a traditional sandwich this can be eaten by hand. Which raises another question -- how about a sausage on a roll? Is that a sandwich? Hmm.

English is nothing if not flexible.

This is certainly true, and one of the things I love about it. :)

how about a sausage on a roll? Is that a sandwich? Hmm.

Wikipedia and I think so. Perhaps the definition might include the "eaten from the hand' phrase along with 'a filling surrounded by bread of some sort'. That would tie in with the habit of that eponymic father of the thing. That would also let in the hotdog and the meat ball sandwich as well as all the po' boys, subs, heroes, et cetera, et cetera and so forth.

I agree that everything you list there is safe to define as "sandwich". But perhaps we're getting to broad. By that definition, a burrito is a sandwich. So is a steamed pork bun. Perhaps in some strict, legalistic sense those things are sandwiches, but in popular usage I doubt anyone would call them such.

Aren't semantics fun?

Maybe you and Ikon could have your OTP indulge in semantics as a break from ... well, you know. *smirk*

What, you haven't read "After"? ;)

I don't recall much semantics in that, more of ... you know? The other recreation.

From Wikipedia: (which lists hamburger as a sandwich)
Variations

The term "sandwich" has been expanded—especially in the United States—to include items made with other "breads" such as tortilla, rolls and focaccia. Thus hamburgers and "subs", for example, are called "sandwiches" in the United States, although not in the midwest, south or western states or most other English-speaking countries (since they are not made with slices of bread from a loaf).

The nearest traditional Scandinavian equivalent is generally known elsewhere as an "open" or "open-face" sandwich, i.e. a single slice of bread with meat, fish, cheese, etc. as a topping, although the sandwich with two slices of bread has become more commonplace in recent times. This open-face variation is also prevalent in Russia, where it is known as a buterbrod (бутерброд, from the German word for "buttered bread").

In India, sandwiches are often vegetarian, the most common type being the vegetable sandwich.

In the UK, particularly in the north of England they are known, informally, as 'butties' or 'sarnies'. This is particularly the case with sandwiches including freshly-cooked bacon and butter, though other forms of 'butty' use other ingredients and mayonnaise. A sandwich filled with chips (US: french fries) is known as a 'chip buttie' (also butty). In French countries you might see this referred to as un Belge: a Belgian (sandwich). In Scotland, sandwiches are called 'pieces'. One Australian slang term for sandwich is 'sanger'. In South Africa sandwiches are sometimes called 'sarmies'.

Hah! When T and I were discussing this last night, after I posted this, he also consulted the great god Wikipedia and pointed me to the exact same article.

Thus hamburgers and "subs", for example, are called "sandwiches" in the United States, although not in the midwest, south or western states or most other English-speaking countries

I agree on hamburgers in the West and Midwest (my two main points of linguistic reference) but not on "subs" -- we call those sandwiches. When I go to Subway et al., I'm not geting a "submarine" (or any of the other regionalisms used for this food item), I'm getting a sandwich, or maybe a deli sandwich.

since they are not made with slices of bread from a loaf).

Ah, but on Sunday evening, I had a hamburger for dinner. The hamburger was not on a bun but rather on slices of sourdough bread. Was that a burger? Or was it a sandwich.

All kinds of linguistic permutations here...

Justine's response - above - crossed your answer in the e-mail. So, I respond thusly: What she said. LOL

Interesting that tortillas are mentioned in the Wikipedia entry: It reminds me of a conversation theme that crops up every few years —the tortilla or wrap food pattern (food meme? food metaphor?) which seems to appear in practically every culture. For example: tacos, lavosh, eggrolls/spring rolls, injera, etc. Do these comprise a subset of the Great Sandwich Family, or do sandwiches comprise a family under the Breaded-Starchy Food Wrap Order?

Ahem, I digress. (As it is so much fun to do so. Especially concerning semantics. And food. ;)

Do these comprise a subset of the Great Sandwich Family, or do sandwiches comprise a family under the Breaded-Starchy Food Wrap Order?

*Very* interesting question. I tend to think that the Food Wrap is the larger Order and the Sandwich is a genus (does that make a Hamburger a species of Sandwich?), but I think you could argue it either way.

OMG, are you singing the Brahms Requiem? I love that piece!

Yes, with my Stanford chorus. I've done it with this group before, so this is a return to a faithful old friend. I love, love, love it. The conductor does too, and his adoration for it comes through in his direction of it, which adds so much to the experience.

Then, in the spring, I *finally* get to do Mozart's Requiem!! So so excited.

*dead from choir geekdom*

Although I have to say, the Mozart Requiem was mighty rough on the sopranos. Stupid Mozart, writing for "trebles..."

I am so happy to be an alto. ;) Especially this quarter; Brahms really knew how to write for the alto voice. It may be my favorite piece to sing from that perspective.

God, I love the Brahms Requiem. Lovelovelovelove. Especially the soprano solo, even if I didn't get to sing it ~~not that I'm bitter~~.

what about a meatball sandwich? that is a patty of ground meat.

Ground meat, certainly, but a patty? I tend to think of a patty as flat.

Hmm, more terms to define...

yep, b/c then you get into trouble with things like Jackson Hole burgers, which are practically round :)

ahh semantics!

Are you familiar with the phrase: "A Jew is whoever other people call a Jew"? Perhaps that is the ultimate answer to the sandwich question. "A sandwich is what any people call a sandwich." I intend to have a turkey, dressing and gravy sandwich for lunch. LOL

I do also greatly enjoy pizza sandwiches.

Ah, yes, the descriptivist solution. :)

I hope you enjoy/ed your sandwich! Pizza sandwiches are indeed delicious, but then I just adore pizza in all its forms....

I take it buttered toast would be a toasted open-face butter sandwich under the views espoused here? And French toast would be a sauteed ...

This is why I'm not a Platonist.

P. (aka rilkefan of rilkeblog)

I take it buttered toast would be a toasted open-face butter sandwich

Hm. By Justine's definition, perhaps. At the very least it would fit her definition of "sandwich-by-courtesy".

I do agree that we descend into ridiculousness if you take it too far. That's why I like

peachespig's linguistic vs. empirical take on the poll post.

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