Wardens of Ivalice: The Meta Post

[owlmoose]

Now that I've posted the first part of my Final Fantasy XII/Dragon Age crossover, I wanted to step back a little bit, think about the world I'm creating and how it's going to work. Spoilers for DA:O, FFXII, and also for the story itself behind the cut. Thoughts and suggestions are more than welcome!

So when renay first suggested this idea to me, I assumed it would be too hard to bring the two universes together. I'm not one who can just throw together characters from different canon settings willy-nilly -- I need to have an explanation for why they're in the same place at the same time. But the concept settled in the back of my mind, and the next time she brought it up I had the following epiphany:

-- Darkspawn emerge from beneath the ground.
-- Ivalice is filled with caverns, mines, and other underground settings.

And voila, I had a mechanism of connection. That was where my vision began: darkspawn bursting from the Zertinan Caverns, with Grey Wardens not far behind, Queen Ashe and Warden-Commander Elissa Cousland coming together to make a stand against the enemy. (I never even considered using any other Warden in that role. The idea of these two women working together was just too appealing.) Of course, there are many factors to consider when you combine two worlds and stories that are so different. These are some of the thoughts I find the most interesting.

1. Magic. How magic works may be the largest gulf between the two universes: it appears that anyone in Ivalice can learn how to cast spells, whereas only those Thedans born with a connection to the Fade will have any magical ability at all. I brought this difference up in "The Joining" but didn't even bother attempting an explanation. I have a feeling I'm going to need to get into a little more depth in Part Two, especially if Alistair and Ashe (whom I always consider a paladin-type) go into battle together. Nathaniel brings up the possibility that Alistair may not be able to use his Templar abilities to dampen magic, and I haven't decided whether or not that will be a problem. Will the Fereldens be able to learn magic here? Does the Fade even exist in Ivalice? Questions I have not yet answered, and which will take more pondering.

2. Merging different levels of technology. Ivalice is an odd mix of high and low technology, and in truth I've always had a hard time deciding what tech they're likely to have in any given situation. Airships and aircars exist, but the common people seem to mostly walk or ride chocobos. Do the people of Ivalice have electricity? Computer tech? Long-range communications? Are the "technologies" we see mostly driven by magic?

Meanwhile, Dragon Age is a medieval tech world beyond doubt. I underplayed this aspect in Part One because I didn't really want to deal with the implications of the Fereldens being overwhelmed by wonders at every turn, but I may do more with it in the future. Have to admit, the business with Nathaniel and Alim's first ride on an airship was a lot of fun to play with.

3. Mist vs. Darkspawn Corruption. One of my first thoughts when pulling these worlds together was the potential to draw a parallel between the way a Blight corrupts the land and the devastation at Nabudis. This led to other ideas, such as the darkspawn going out of their way to avoid the Wood, and Fran's ability to sense the taint (and it's really too bad that I can't write her as romantically involved with Balthier, because how delicious would *that* angst have been?). I see a connection to Mist here, and maybe nethicite, but I think I need to do more research to figure out how that's going to work.

4. The Occuria as "Old Gods". One of the big questions, of course, is why the darkspawn have been drawn to Ivalice in the first place. If the archdemons are the Old Gods of Thedas, then might it be logical for the Occuria, or one of their number, to serve the same function here? I've thought of involving Morrigan or Flemeth -- Morrigan, especially, although whether she would be working for or against the Wardens isn't clear to me -- but that leads me to the question of why either of these women would take an interest in Ivalice. Magicite, perhaps, or the Occuria themselves? This is probably the aspect of the merger I'm fuzziest on.

So, that's where I am right now, at least in terms of bringing the worlds together. I have a lot of thoughts on the characters, too, and why I created the connections and teams I did, but that can wait for another day.

Comments

[lassarina]

I really need to have time to read that piece. This week, probably.

I love Ashe and Elissa tag-teaming, and yeah, blending magic systems is tricky. Here's one thought: Learning to use a spell is something anyone can do, but it takes a lot more out of you if you're not connected to the Mist/the Fade strongly. (i.e.: meta-explanation for variations in Magick stats, and why Penelo and Fran are better spellcasters than Basch and Balthier.)

I think that's an excellent way to explain why the Darkspawn are there, and here I'm just sort of noodling around: Would the Fereldans interpret Mist as fade-bleed? Does such a thing exist? I mean, I imagine that's how they would explain it to themselves, but is that something that even exists in Ferelden?

[owlmoose]

Interesting thoughts, all, and they lead me to think that the best way to work almost everything is to draw a strong connection between Mist and the Fade, although I would also need to bring in the Taint, since I've already connected them. But maybe that makes sense, if darkspawn were created because the Tevinter magisters were mucking about in the Fade. Hmm.

I look forward to hearing what you think of it!

BTW, totally playing Dragon Age 2 now.

[zen_monk]

Whenever I think about how to best describe technology in Final Fantasy, I've settled on the fact that the development of tech relies on those who have a lot of money/influence. Like for example in Ivalice, where the Nobility seem to decide how things should run, things like airships and war armadas make more sense to me because those are equipment made to defend their dominion. So to me, having advancement in things like personal mobility, military defense, and luxury depends on commissions made by interested individuals rather than having it all collaborated as a whole. If all the nobility were to collaborate their wealth on the government, it would be for self-preservation means, like public safety. Things like ensuring public health for ALL citizens or public education might be the last things on their list of "what to fund the nation for."

Also, investments such as transportation and communication would most likely be initiated by people in the merchant class, since those are essential to furthering their enterprise. After all, the reason we have a inter-continental railroad in America is because of wealthy businessmen wanting to expand. That would explain furthering airship development and possibly magic development in Ivalice, but I don't think many would be keen on helping in doing stuff on land because there seems to be an abundance of wildlife that like to endanger mankind.

In regards to magic, I like to think the geography of the land would play a role in shaping distinctions. Say in Thedas, where to access magic is to be strongly connected to the Fade so that people like Mages would be conscious in them. But the Fade is obviously in a different realm since it can only be accessed through lyrium and is the place where dreams take place. Ivalice, on the other hand, has magic being a part of everyday life since mist is an element that's interactive with day-to-day life, like classical notions of aether. If it's like a natural phenomenon like air, then collections of Mist would depend on how the land is shaped, like in canyons or in dense woods, and maybe even on magnetism and the weather. Then it wouldn't be a wonder that a lot of people in Ivalice can use spells and even buy access to spells, because it's like prepping their bodies into manipulating something that might always be in their bodily system.

But I like to wager that the Fade is a highly condensed place of magic were if it were to interact with the physical, mundane world, dramatic things would happen like having the dead walking around. Because the Ferelden world have so few places where the Fade can leak and interact with the mundane, then I'm willing to argue that any time the Fade leaks into a place where magic has never touched it would result in something negative; there's just no time to adapt magic smoothly into physical existence. So you get living things being overloaded with the Fade and then becoming corrupted, like with animals and even with the darkspawn.

At least, that how I would interpret these things if I were to marry Ivalice with Dragon Age.

Re: BTW, totally playing Dragon Age 2 now.

[owlmoose]

What you say about both tech and magic use makes a lot of sense. I wonder if the Veil is thinner in Ivalice just generally -- there are hints about Kirkwall being such a place in DA2, which explains why there are more blood mages and demon possessions there than in other parts of Thedas -- and therefore more people are more sensitive to it. Certainly that could explain places like the Feywood, or artificially-created Mist zones like Nabudis. If we connect lyrium and magicite (as vieralynn suggests below), does that help this theory make more sense? Hmmm.

Yay, DA2! Origins will always be first in my heart, but I liked DA2 a lot too. What are you thinking of it?

Re: BTW, totally playing Dragon Age 2 now.

[zen_monk]

My thoughts were "There's a lot of mini-quests around here" and "What's with all the evil magic people?" Because seriously, for every douchey anti-magic guy, there's always some kind of hapless mage person who harbors phenomenal cosmic power or an evil mage dude.

I mean, there's a lot of sketch going on in Kirkwall and the only good people that are left to stop it are fighting each other.

I think that the magical influence in Ivalice can lend its inspiration to Eastern attitudes of the supernatural. Like, if the Mist is something that's always part of the environment, then using Mist can be just as natural as training your body if that makes sense. Like, being able to use the energies of your surroundings and combining it with your inner chi so that it'll be concentrated into a form of power. I think that magic in Ivalice has greater unity in the mind and body for it to be able to be used in almost everyday life (at least for the adventurer). I mean, I'm willing to bet that if street urchins Vaan and Penelo can learn it then anyone can.

In contrast, I think that the Fade tends to be more spiritual and psychological, since that's the domain of spirits and dreams. Spirits and demons that are there seem to emulate the virtues and vices of the mortal realm, but I don't think that the entirety of the supernatural can be so simply explained as being personified human values. But perhaps it is? Perhaps the Fade is really the collective unconscious of all conscious beings in Thedas. That would certainly be supported by having dreams taking place in the Fade. I also like to think that spirits and demons as they are aren't powerful until when confronted with something from the physical world. For example, I think Pride demons would truly manifest their characteristics only when a person has communicated with it and that person would act as like a mirror of itself. I mean, if there weren't mages running around tempting magical beings with their mere existence, what would those demons/spirits be doing? Would a Pride demon just be arrogant at its worst or boastful at its best? Would a desire demon just look around for conscious vessels to fulfill its need to desire something? Justice really would be just a concept until it actually experiences life through Anders' eyes. In contrast, it seems as though the Gods and Espers of Ivalice seem to maintain a kind of individuality as well as being able to exist in the mortal realm without the aid of humans pulling them out.

But I digress. I have read both vieralynn and yours' discussion and I agree with both.

Re: BTW, totally playing Dragon Age 2 now.

[owlmoose]

I also like to think that spirits and demons as they are aren't powerful until when confronted with something from the physical world. For example, I think Pride demons would truly manifest their characteristics only when a person has communicated with it and that person would act as like a mirror of itself. I mean, if there weren't mages running around tempting magical beings with their mere existence, what would those demons/spirits be doing? ... In contrast, it seems as though the Gods and Espers of Ivalice seem to maintain a kind of individuality as well as being able to exist in the mortal realm without the aid of humans pulling them out.

That is a really interesting point, and I will have to think about the implications! Hmm. I also like the idea that Mist is "native" to Ivalice in a way that the Fade is not.

[sarasa_cat]

I second lassarina's comment about your explanation for how Darkspawn end up in Ivalice. I'm still near the beginning of DA so I don't yet have really deep thoughts about that universe yet, but I'm okay being spoiled even more than I already am and I'll undoubtably have deeper thoughts once I start marathoning through DA once my end quarter hell wraps up around Thursday (?) of this week.

A couple of quick thoughts regarding FFXII:

1. Magick is performed by working with the Mist, a natural occurring energy (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Knowledge_1-26#SK_09:_Mist). While mist is found all over Ivalice, its levels vary (it appears quite weak in cities?! my headcanon is that city-dwelling people have very low levels of mist available to/in them for performing spells) and mist is held within magicite, a mineral ore. (I haven't yet found an explanation of precisely how people perform spells, but my headcanon has created a physical explanation: mist can be absorbed into the mineral structure of bones and then psycho-physiologically harnessed when casting spells. Various bits of my Gabranth fiction expound on this but I'm not sure what parts have been published and what hasn't … I need to dig through my 2009 NaNo files to find much of it).

On the surface, magic in DA seems really different since it involves the Fade (I'm still getting a handle on what the Fade is but it is okay if our conversation spoils me). Yet, there might be an interesting connection with Lyrium which is also a mineral??!? This will take a little more working out …

All that said, if Alistair travels to Ivalice and he's able to absorb mist into his body just like anyone else, he may be able to learn basic spells.

2. Technology bits: Yes, Ivalice does have electricity (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Knowledge_1-26#SK_11:_Electricity_and_Magick) and it is an alternate fuel to artificially condensed mist. Draklor definitely had old school computers in some of the rooms. We'd need to find a walk through video (or rev up an old save) but I vaguely remember them looking like ancient mainframes from the 1960s. They definitely have short-range "radio" (of some sort) because they are able to transfer audio messages in real time between airships. They may have longer range radio capabilities or telegraph. These technologies don't appear to be wide spread outside military use and, perhaps, Archadia's middle class and upper class citizens? Technologies are driven by a variety of means: via magicite http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Knowledge_1-26#SK_12:_Magicite, electricity, windmills, and oil powered machines http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Knowledge_27-52#SK_49:_Ogir-Yensa_Sandsea.

I tend to make sense of Ivalice by thinking of FFXII representing an early industrial age where most of the world is living in pre-industrial agrarian style except for the main cities of big empires that are able to afford industrialization. Comparing to our world, horseback cavalry units still existed during WWI and the Russian Civil War. Thus, chocobo don't seem entirely out of place in FFXII -- the Dalmascan military definitely relied on them.

3. I'm interested in how you pull this together. I'm still figuring out just what the whole Darkspawn Corruption is about.

4. Instead of the Occuria, the Old Gods could also be the Ivalician Scions of Light and Darkness: the ??? and the Espers.

[owlmoose]

(Sorry it took me a few days to respond to this! Using the DA spelling of magic just to keep things simple.)

Lyrium is, in fact, a mineral, and in its processed form, it's used to improve the connection between the mortal realm and the Fade -- potions to restore magical energy, make spells more potent, infuse items with magical ability, etc. The Fade is basically the spirit world -- spirits and demons live there, humans and elves "go there" when they dream, and mages can connect to the Fade while awake. This last marks the difference between a mage and a non-mage in the DA universe. This is also why there are no dwarf mages -- dwarves have no connection to the Fade. They're also resistant to lyrium. I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me to draw a parallel between lyrium and magicite, but of course now that you say it, it seems completely obvious. :)

The thing with Alistair isn't so much about him learning magic, as how his existing abilities function in Ivalice. Alistair was trained as a Templar (he left for the Wardens before taking his vows, but he retains all his abilities), and as such he has skills for dampening the abilities of mages. It's never said outright, I don't think, but my assumption has always been that Templars hinder mages by breaking their connection to the Fade. Would those abilities work in Ivalice, if magic is not called directly from the Fade but instead comes from Mist (which I'm thinking will have to be connected to the Fade somehow)? In "The Joining", I had a mage character express surprise that he saw someone cast magic without tapping into the Fade, so I'll have to keep that consistent. I do love the idea of some DA non-mage characters getting to learn some spells, though; I may have to work that in.

Thanks for all the info on Ivalice tech! That makes sense -- the governments and upper classes having far more access than the "common" people. Since the Wardens are working with world leaders, then, it seems likely that they would be able to tap into these resources, at least to a certain extent.

I have pretty much established Occurian involvement in Part One. I don't know much about the Scions of Light and Darkness or the Espers, since FFXII is the only Ivalice game I've played, and I found the Espers pretty much useless from a gameplay perspective so I didn't delve into them much. I might have to look into them more, see if it makes sense to work them in.

[sarasa_cat]

I finally stole time from my schedule yesterday and the day before to read your Part One of The Joining. :D

Alistair-- right, his Templar abilities. Either way you go with it, interesting internal conflicts arise. If Alistair *can* continue to use his Templar skills people in Ivalice might assume he is practicing something akin to magic or, to the untrained eye, his skills are magic. Irony ensues. On the other hand, if Alistair *cannot* use his Templar skills, he'll need to confront the personal meaning of no longer being a Templar at all. Or, perhaps he cannot use his Templar skills but he has a natural inclination to learning spells like Syphon (drains MP) without needing to learn precursor spells before it. This third instance hits with the double whammy of no longer a templar AND doing magic.

While magic isn't looked at with suspicion in FFXII, for what it is worth, it is controlled in the sense that people need to get (purchase) licenses. Presumably monsters and other creatures/people living out on the fringes don't get license. ;) Likewise, advanced magical knowledge seems to be limited. Many of the human in-game enemies -- imperial hoplites and such -- don't seem to know much more than "shell" and "protect." If Alistair could, in some way, continue to perform Templar-like skills in addition to all of his other abilities/skills, his overall collection of battle knowledge would sort of class him around the level of the Judge Magisters (from the boss battles), methinks.

It will be interesting to see how you connect the Mist and the Fade, given that the Fade is really another world--a spirit realm--whereas the Mist is the energy used for magic and other things. Maybe, in DA's world physics, something equivalent to the Mist *is* the energy that is being pulled from the Fade? Ivalice's spirit realm seems to almost directly overlap with the physical world (particularly in places where the Mist is very strong and causes life to grow wild or monstrous).


I like your Occurian involvement in Part One. It works really well.

[owlmoose]

Since Alim casts magic successfully in Part One, I've established that Thedan style magic does still work in Ivalice -- the Fade is still accessible to them. Mostly what I wonder is whether Alistair's Templar skills would hinder the spellcasting of an Ivalice magic-user.

Oooh, Judge Magister Alistair. Not that I see him staying behind, at least not in my current vision of the later parts of the story, but giving him a similar ability set/battle style is very appealing. Do any of the Judges fight with sword and shield? Gabranth I remember being dual-wield, but what about the others?

Maybe, in DA's world physics, something equivalent to the Mist *is* the energy that is being pulled from the Fade? Ivalice's spirit realm seems to almost directly overlap with the physical world (particularly in places where the Mist is very strong and causes life to grow wild or monstrous).

It could definitely be something like that -- similar to my comment to zen_monk, above, where I suggest that what Thedans call The Veil is much thinner in Ivalice, giving more people access to the energy that comes from the Fade, which manifests here as Mist.

How much do we know about the connection between Mist and magicite? Is magicite crystallized Mist, or does Mist leak out of magicite? Or is it a more circular relationship? Hmm...

[sarasa_cat]

Hahaha. Judge Magister Alistair. ;)

Other than Gabranth, I think most of the Magisters had rather showy, impractical weapons, with Bergan being the worst: his two massive monstrosities that look more like nightmare fuel than proper weapons.


Oh, duh, I missed what zen_monk posted and yes, Ivalice has a very non-Western (or non-Judeo-Christian-Islamic) approach to the supernatural whereas Dragon Age feels far more like the European Middle Ages. I like the idea of the Fade as the collective unconsciousness.

From what I've been able to glean from the bits of mythology factoids scattered throughout the FFXII bestiary, mist is an energy that can be contained inside (the space within? the bonds of?) various stable molecular structures and magicite just happens to be very good at "hold[ing] high concentrations of condensed mist within its crystalline structure" (Sage Knowledge 09). And, that "a property of magicite that it loses its mist over time, and once spent, a stone's mist cannot be renewed. Magicite without mist is mere rock. The ability to manufact magicite of some power has only recently been attained, and this after many long years of research" (Sage Knowledge 12).

So, via some natural means (only recently replicated in Draklor Laboratory), natural magicite apparently needs to undergo a physical process such that mist is condensed and stored within it in rich ore, underground. Perhaps it is a slow geological process? Maybe layers of decaying organic matter that contains psychic-spiritual energy (i.e., mist or the magic-stuff that composes the Fade) is slowly crushed and heated through through geological crushing, breaking up the organic molecular bonds and simultaneously condensing the mist as the molecular structure crystalizes. That would give us the veins of magicite-rich ore in mines.

And, perhaps, in other places the decaying organic matter is in loamy or boggy soil and the decaying matter emits mist up through the soil and into the air. That wouldn't give a condition where rich magicite ore is produced but it would create a continual feedback loop where mist is let off into the air and absorbed into other living things who eventually die and decay.

I have *NOT* yet found an explanation in any of the FFXII materials of how mist is formed. Where does it come from??? I make the assumption that it is some sort of psychic (??) energy purely because of how it is used to project dream-like images and, also, to manipulate people and viera.

The other puzzling bit is how mist can be either "active" or "cool/inactive." It seems like the active mist is able to set of catalyzing reactions, like sending Viera into mist-frenzies or making Nabudis into a strange, uninhabitable place. Cool/inactive mist just seems inert.

…

I'm not sure if this rambling gets you any closer to figuring out how Thedans make use of Ivalician magic. Perhaps the difference is this: Thedans are less likely (while living in their world) to have the ability to do magic because the energy drawn from Fade is more distant and requires greater strength to harness. Ivalicians are more likely (while living in their world) to have the ability to do basic magic because the energy--the Mist--is more directly available and takes far less strength to harness it. But, other than that, maybe the bio-psycho-physical processes of casting magic are the same?