*Throws up hands in frustration*

[owlmoose]

"Fandom is traditionally a female space" is not some secret code for "We think all men suck and don't want to invite them over to play."

I want to sit down every single person, whatever their gender, who has gone on and on about how OTW is "excluding men" and make them read cereta's essay on "Fandom and Male Privilege" until they get it.

(This post brought to you by one too many idiot rants and wanting an excuse to post a link to the above essay, which I think is worth all of your time.)

Comments

[lassarina]

You saw that moronic post on fanficrants too, eh?

Word and agreement.

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

It was... something of a last straw, you might say.

Thanks!

[lassarina]

I really don't know where people get their high horses from. I made some bitchy remarks in the comments to that post along the lines of "Metafandom swells with the topical; it's the way it is" and also "if you don't like the way MF categorizes posts, then make your own - oh wait, then you'd have to work."

If I singled out all the fannish journals (and I have a ridiculous f-list), I can think of maybe 2 that are definitely male-owned and maybe 2 more that I'm unsure of. This leaves probably 50+ either fandom-journals or journals-of-people-I-know-through-fandom that are female. IT'S JUST A FACT, Y'ALL.

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I know a few men in fandom, but they are definitely the minority here.

It just makes me crazy, the fact that the automatic response to something like this is "but what about the poor oppressed men??!!11?" I get the same thing in the library world, from time to time. Of course, even though men are something like 25% of the workforce, they're far more likely to be in higher-paying technical positions or in management. There's no sexism in the world, no not at all. :P

[lassarina]

I linked to another piece you might find interesting on women and fanfiction, besides cereta's.

I did an analysis of my f-list, listing everyone I might even broadly consider as fannish or who I met through fannish circles, and then listing out men and women. 18 men, 64 women, including 3 people whose genders I was not 100% sure of (one of whom I listed as a woman, two of whom as men.)

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

I saw that; it's been on my to-read list for awhile now. Thanks for the reminder! I'm sure I'll have plenty to say once I finally sit down and read it...

[rants]

[parron.livejournal.com]

I know absolutely nothing about this whole affair besides the basic, rough outline - you know me and metafandom and the OMGLIVEJOURNALPOWER!!!!--we don't get along. But I remember thinking not, "OMG THIS GOES AGAINST MY FEMINIST WAYS" or whatever, but just, "wow, way to be pretentious." One of the few things I read and agreed with on metafandom basically read, "It's not the idea I mind, it's the fact that these ten [or however many people] are presuming to speak for all of the people in fandom."

That and, I'm sorry, but "legalizing fanfiction" and all the rest makes me laugh out loud. It's just exactly like the strikeout idiocy -- LOOK AT HOW SPECIAL WE ARE. WATCH US PROVE OUR SPECIAL. SPECIAL!!!!

And I do wish those people didn't claim to represent fandom as a whole. Especially as I am a part of fandom.


I grew up in Vermont, which I think takes pride in being the most Batshit Liberal state in the USA. It's like our state motto. I count as pretty liberal myself when I take polls to that effect, even! But growing up in Vermont? There is bad liberal, too. Believe me. I have stories. Just like not all conservatives are extremist assholes, well, lots of liberals ARE. And that is, I suspect, why I hate LJ fandom. Because they are so OMG IMPORTANT and OMG RIGHTS and OMG WE FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS, and I grew up around shit like that, and shit is exactly what it is. There's an eventual line where "fighting for rights" becomes "being an asshole," and LJ fandom? Long, long over that line.

It's not "Oh, men can join, too" that I'm worried about -- it's "OH WE WOMEN OF FANDOM ARE SO SPECIAL AND DESERVE RIGHTS LOOK AT OUR SPECIAL." Whether or not men are involved have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Re: [rants]

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

My point was not to present a blanket defense of OTW. I'm just responding to a particular argument I've been seeing a lot of, and that pushes my feminist buttons.

Anything that I might say at this point would just be repeating what's already in the essay (which is not, btw, a defense of OTW; it was written in 2005). Read the essay; then if you want to discuss further, then we can.

[bottle-of-shine.livejournal.com]

You know I am totally with you on this issue. It's a marvel watching people, especially women, miss the point by so much. Seriously, can people not read? I really wish I knew what the disconnect was, you know?

I've wondered how much of the outright sneering is coming from younger members — people under 25 or maybe even under 20, who haven't lived enough to realize that male privilege has shaped their life and that fandom, a beautifully formed female community, is something special and something to be valued This post (http://watersword.insanejournal.com/17526.html) actually summed up my thoughts. It really touched me.

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

That's a wonderful piece, thanks so much for the link. As a women's college grad myself, a lot of it resonates with me.

[justira.livejournal.com]

You know what, I am boggled as well. Nay already provided a great link one comment up that sums it up nicely: the default is male privilege and male-dominated spaces. Pointing out that fandom happens to be an exception is not a threat to men; it's not a "no boys allowed" sign. Can we move on, please?

Also, what is this fanficrants post I see mentioned?

Thanks for the link, it looks quite interesting! I will peruse.

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I hope we can move on from it soon, too. But I think it's also a valuable conversation. If it makes anyone face up to the reality of the world we live in, maybe it's worth it.

Here's the fanficrants post. Warning: may induce high blood pressure...

[justira.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's a whole lot of... I don't even know what. I do think that somewhere in there are some legitimate points that if they were stated with less stupid should be paid attention to. But for the most part: wow, what an ass.

I was about to start pulling quotes from it to froth at you about, but I realize that's pretty pointless -- probably we're angry about the same things.

But seriously, one of the most boggling -- not rage-making, but boggling -- parts is how he keeps saying OTW has nothing to show for itself. This is (a) not true, they're building a framework and (b) glaringly obvious and entirely in the natural course of things. They're going about everything carefully, step by step. They don't have much funds or infrastructure yet, but they're trying to build a solid base from which to make everything. I don't understand how he can fault them for this. I'm just! boggled!

Oh, and I have to apologize: I didn't mean to dismiss the issue of the gender conversation -- that's entirely not what I meant to say but I think I came off that way anyway. Uh. Whoops. D= It IS something that should be discussed, but it's also something that shouldn't be some big barrier to discussing all the other conversations OTW brings to the table. Does that make sense?

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to dismiss the issue of the gender conversation

Oh, no, that's not how I read you at all! I agree that it's miring down serious conversation. And I'm not the only one -- someone in the FFR comments basically said "I'm an OTW detractor, but I'm not doing that publicly anymore because I'm tired of distancing myself from idiots like you."

one of the most boggling -- not rage-making, but boggling -- parts is how he keeps saying OTW has nothing to show for itself

Yes, totally agreed. What is he expecting? Instant archive, just add water? Also, it seems a little contradictory. "Your project sucks and I want nothing to do with it! Also, why isn't it finished yet?" Sort of the same logic as "this food is terrible and the portions are too small".

[rustehroll.livejournal.com]

I made a new years resolution to Stop Caring when it came to people that I will not change, no matter what.

I have to say, I'm a little sick and tired of being "amazed" and "proud" when I see men in a relationship taking on an equal share of the work. WTF.

Sorry, this just really hit a huge nerve with me.

I'm with you, btw. WTH?

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

tired of being "amazed" and "proud" when I see men in a relationship taking on an equal share of the work

Yeah. But it's textbook, unfortunately. All part of the male privilege thing. And it gets me how thoroughly it's worked into society, that we don't even notice until it's called out.

[oswulf.livejournal.com]

I don't really know the context that spurred this--not personally familiar with OTW, or the ongoing discussions herein referenced, but I read the article and it makes a lot of good points.

What really stuck with me is the tv example though. The whole sitcoms as exceptions to the primarily male actors thing in particular, and having given that some thought what strikes me is that--

for the most part drama tends to focus on things like professions (cop, lawyer, etc) or story arcs dealing heavily with the "professional" world (what leaps to mind is Moonlight where the main character operates largely in connectin to the police & media)--and their male-dominatedness reflects the male privelege (sp?) prevalent in that world.

Sitcoms on the other hand, tend to focus on family & friends--which while certainly shaped by cultural forces are shaped by different cultural forces.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on why the sitcom/drama discrepency might arise.

And now my mind's drifting to superhero comics and role playing so I'll stop babbling now.